Four Kings Whiskey

[DaveOfAtl]

Andrew, I appreciate your response, and you know I have nothing but respect for your operation (in spite of my snark), but I too am confused by the assertion that adding "new oak" rye or wheat to bourbons before bottling is a common practice. This is the first I have ever heard of this and if it's true, that's quite a bombshell to drop.

[Josh]

I asked Bernie Lubbers on Twitter if Heaven Hill finishes bourbon with wheat or rye whiskey and I got this response:

HH or NO one does or can. You can't mingle bourbon w/ any other style of whiskey & call it Brbn by law...

Lucy, you got some splainin' to do...

Edited April 3, 2014 by Josh

[MyOldKyDram]

Eh that's just the major producers.

We're talking craft law here.

[squire]

Exactly what I was thinking. What is the ACDA ethics committee ruling on on that?

[callmeox]

Pretty clearly says wheat whiskey on a couple of places. Bourbon ain't that hard to spell.

Where's that TTB complaint form, Scott?

It was beer and trivia night, so I was AFK for a bit.

TTB contact info is in this post.

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?21868-Bottled-in-Bond-s&p=406473&viewfull=1#post406473

[MyOldKyDram]

Cool. Will send them something tonight or tomorrow. Why I have no idea.

[Josh]

The ADI has awarded Corsair Distillery of the Year.

[Lost Pollito]

I hope you guys get to taste it. Pretty delicious juice.

[MyOldKyDram]

No thank you. Drink up, friend.

[Lost Pollito]

No thank you. Drink up, friend.

[MyOldKyDram]

Really, in a totally irrational way, pisses me off that this stuff is already out there labeled as it is. Personally speaking I will never buy another bottle of anything that touches their hands. Hey, I said I was being irrational.

[JPBoston]

Hey Dave, Corsair Andrew here.

The barrels of the Four Kings collab that were decanted on Monday were all filled with the same four grain bourbon. The bottled stuff is, per the BAM, TTB regs, and tradition, a bourbon. Weird thanks to the smoke, but labeled truthfully and properly.

As a point of interest there are some weird rules at play outside of your worry. The Four Kings stuff cannot be labeled a "straight" bourbon regardless of age because the production happened in multiple states. It cannot be a "blended" bourbon - which I would prefer - because a blended bourbon is a blend of straight bourbons, not just bourbons. At least, so reads the BAM and so states the TTB.

I will say, though, that you are off on expecting a bourbon to be the final recipe pre-barrel. I expect you've had a healthy number of bourbons cross your lips that were high-corn bourbons mixed post-decant with new-oak aged rye or new-oak aged wheat whiskey. It's not uncommon.

I do respect holding distillers to account for deceptive practices. In this instance, I would suggest you think again about who is involved with this collab. Three of the four distilleries involved sit on the ACDA Ethics committee, which is tasked with helping the craft industry cope with deceptive and poorly labeled products. All the distilleries involved have been on the forefront of being open about process and product, pushing boundaries, and setting examples to counter those entities I think we all can agree are not on the level.

More practically, there's less than a thousand bottles of this whiskey, and it would sell out with any class and type label at twice the price it will be on shelves. There is no economic or marketing point to mislabeling the juice. This is a product done for fun and mutual respect, which I think is worthy of support.

In the defense of the TTB - note an unconventional distillery defending the government - they are cracking down on requiring formulas for most kinds of whiskeys, a step which has not been enforced for many years. This means newer label whiskeys in the states had their recipes and production steps vetted by the TTB's formula office before a label could be issued.

At the end of the day, though, you don't need to be convinced. Try the whiskey or not; you define who will be successful and who will fall by the way as whiskey changes and grows in the US. All the distilleries involved are used to enthusiasm and rejection in the same day. It's the blessing and curse of crafting for an enthusiast-driven industry.

Best,

Andrew

[MyOldKyDram]

I'm not enough of a rules expert to confirm or argue any points here...

[Lost Pollito]

Really, in a totally irrational way, pisses me off that this stuff is already out there labeled as it is. Personally speaking I will never buy another bottle of anything that touches their hands. Hey, I said I was being irrational.

[Josh]

I respect the calm tone of his response, but the contents leave a lot to be desired.

I'm not an expert on the rules either, but I know enough to know that Four Kings is not a bourbon. If all that mattered was the proportion of corn in the bottle, then Forgiven and Bourye would be labeled as bourbons, but of course they're not. Corsair and the other distilleries involved in this project are essentially attempting to do with bourbon what Diageo has been attempting to do with Tennessee whiskey. They're loosening (I'm tempted to say "debasing") the category to allow whiskeys that have never been labeled as bourbons in the modern era to be labeled as such so that they can benefit from bourbon's popularity. When pressed their response has been "Trust us, we're on the ethics committee."

I'm still puzzled over what what Andrew intended to do with the remarks about bourbons being topped off with straight wheat or rye. That's not something the big distillers do, so who is doing it? Other micros? Corsair themselves? And what did he hope to accomplish by making that statement? Maybe he was just trying to move the goalposts or erect a straw man or something but it was very odd and off-putting.

I'll not go so far as to say that I'll never buy a Corsair product again, but it certainly has changed my opinion of them. Frankly, I feel like a fool for calling them "the good guys" for so long. That doesn't make me want to reach for their products anytime soon.

Edited April 10, 2014 by Josh

[squire]

To say "others do it" is an excuse to bend the rules yourself. When pressed no one seem to be able to say exactly who these 'others' are but everybody's heard about them.

[callmeox]

That's the disheartening thing about Andrew stopping by. We got a "trust us" and some misinformation yet no attempt to clarify the position.

[MyOldKyDram]

Maybe CorsairAndrew will be back to clarify their position.

Either way I did finally get a response from the TTB and they are looking into it, FWIW.

I'd be surprised if I heard much more from them on the matter, but you'll just need look to the shelves for their ruling.

[DaveOfAtl]

Maybe CorsairAndrew will be back to clarify their position.

Either way I did finally get a response from the TTB and they are looking into it, FWIW.

I'd be surprised if I heard much more from them on the matter, but you'll just need look to the shelves for their ruling.

Well, according to CorsairAndrew, this is a super limited release (only at one store) that will sell out quickly, so there may not be any on the shelves by the time there is a determination by TTB.

[MauiSon]

It's the Wild West all over again. Step right up, this wonder tonic will cure all that ails ya! Get in, get out, count your profits before anyone can call you out. Okay, if it tastes good, all is forgiven?

[benpearson]

I was unaware that Corsair makes a bourbon. Can you also clarify that you are also making bourbon Corsair Andrew?

I know that this whole project was meant to be a fun experiment, but if there is a failure in labeling it reflects poorly on everyone involved. The product should be kept from entering the market if it is indeed mislabeled, which it appears to be. It doesn't look like the release will take place until the 24th so there is time to do this. As you said there are only 600 bottles in the first place.

[callmeox]

Binnys can stop it, the distributor can stop it and those who provided the components can stop it but none have shown any public indication of their intent.

[Dannabis]

What would the motivation be for not returning after offering such an interesting insight....

[MyOldKyDram]

Realized they weren't going/nor did they need to win this particular battle.

[mbroo5880i]

Not to offend anyone, but all of these oddball whiskeys just aren't my cup of tea. I have never tried a Corsair product or a product from any of the other companies. I guess if it were offered as a sample, I would try it. But, it would have to exceptional before I would buy it. There are other craft/small distillers who have products available or in the pipeline that pique my interest more.

I did find this description of a Corsair "bourbon" online.

“Insanity and brilliance†come together in one bottle to redefine the taste and approach to Bourbon as we know it. BourbonBlog.com reviews Corsair Artisan Distillery‘s Insane in the Grain – 12 Grain Bourbon.

This 12-Grain Bourbon is made with Corn, Blue Corn, Barley, Rye, Wheat, Oats, Quinoa, Spelt, Sorghum, Triticale, 6-Row Brewer’s Malt, and Millet. (See the Distillery Beer Recipe below)"

I like corn, I like Blue Corn, I like Rye, I like wheat, I like Oats, I like Spelt not so much, Sorghum is ok, not sure what triticale is. I just don't think I want them all in my bourbon (at the same time) or beer, for that matter.