Four Kings Whiskey

[Josh]

As I said to another poster in this thread recently, the micros have truly arrived. They can now spin BS as well or better than the big boys.

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[squire]

Small doesn't mean superior, hand made doesn't mean well made, calling it craft doesn't make you a craftsman and throwing more than three grains in the mashbill doesn't mean more is better.

[TunnelTiger]

We need to think positive about all of the new "craft" bottles because when the uninitiated buy them they leave the good stuff on the shelves for us and after tasting they most likely will give up on bourbon altogether.

It's all good.

[cowdery]

One of the 'kings' verified to me that one of the components is wheat whiskey, not bourbon. It is, therefore, mislabeled. He also told me they have a lot of other, arguably more serious, problems with this bottling, with the Illinois ABC and a big Illinois distributor. Best part probably is that it was not even 1,000 bottles, so hopefully they've all been sold and they can convince the aggrieved parties that it is moot now, they have learned their lesson, and will sin no more.

I had a taste and wasn't that impressed. It was only one small taste at WhiskyFest, but it seemed like a typical lightly-aged micro-distillery whiskey, competent but nothing special. It certainly does not taste like bourbon.

I still like the idea, though, and hope they will try it again in the future and not be scared off by the bumps and bruises they got this time.

[MyOldKyDram]

According to Wainwright they're littering the shelves at Binny's and nobody wants the shit. I'm fine w that. Damned shame that they're running into other problems too. Hate that for them.

[cowdery]

It's such a small run, they'll probably sell them. The 'nobody wants them' claim is a bit premature, as they only officially debuted last week, but they sure aren't getting the publicity they wanted.

[Lost Pollito]

According to Wainwright they're littering the shelves at Binny's and nobody wants the shit.

Sorry, but I have to disagree. May be some out where Ryan is at, but we've just about sold out at this point.

[fussychicken]

Geeze guys, you are acting like these "four kings" are the reincarnation of the four horsemen.

Did they come off as a little cocky? Sure. Did they even know they did something wrong? Maybe, but also maybe not.

But it is about the principle you say!!! Yes that is important. But at the end of the day this is a limited run that had probably already been bottled and labeled. And the TTB would have taken another forever and a day to get their new label approved. If you think the TTB is disappointing you, you have no idea how frustrating it is for these producers. In the beer world these guys would been seen as boring monks compared the the typical experiments that go on there.

The other good thing is that you actually know what is in the whiskey! Most of the "good guy" micros are happy to tell you what is in their whiskey. And you can also reward or punish them as much as you want by not buying it. Capitalism works both ways.

[MyOldKyDram]

Sorry, but I have to disagree. May be some out where Ryan is at, but we've just about sold out at this point.

Blame him! Not sure which one he stopped at Sunday or who he talked to, just what he saw/heard. Maybe been a big run on it since then? A win for the good guys I suppose!

[Quantum]

Geeze guys, you are acting like these "four kings" are the reincarnation of the four horsemen.

Did they come off as a little cocky? Sure. Did they even know they did something wrong? Maybe, but also maybe not.

But it is about the principle you say!!! Yes that is important. But at the end of the day this is a limited run that had probably already been bottled and labeled. And the TTB would have taken another forever and a day to get their new label approved. If you think the TTB is disappointing you, you have no idea how frustrating it is for these producers. In the beer world these guys would been seen as boring monks compared the the typical experiments that go on there.

It is pretty clear they made a mistake, but it is definitely true that they have tried to cover it up instead of clearing things up. You can justify it all you want, and minimize it by saying they initially had good intent, but at the end of the day they tried to deceive their customers. The fact it is a limited run is irrelevant. The amount of whiskey covered by the error does not have any bearing on the level of the infraction.

The other good thing is that you actually know what is in the whiskey! Most of the "good guy" micros are happy to tell you what is in their whiskey. And you can also reward or punish them as much as you want by not buying it. Capitalism works both ways.

Exactly, I appreciate the "good guys" who tell you what is in their whiskey. Its a shame these guys decided to clam up about the details as soon as they realized there was a problem. One of the guys telling Chuck in person does not really equal transparency and honesty.

[B.B. Babington]

now all this hype has got me wanting to sample it, especially after Chuck's review. Too bad it'll not hit my neck o' wood. Or just as well since it would probably be over the $25 which is max I'd trade for it. I used to jump on each new craft that came down the pike. Still consider some if not priced too high. Found a few that were actually pretty good.

[cowdery]

I would actually like the opportunity to taste it in a little more depth, which Joe at Binny's has offered to let me do, but I'm not sure I want it badly enough to make the trip. If you're interested in following the progress of the region's micro-distilleries, it's an important milestone. If you want to kick them to the curb for their transgressions, that's okay too.

One interesting thing is that you have four guys and four very different personalities, reflected in the different ways they dealt with the mislabeling issue. I would disagree that there was ever truly a cover-up. Instead it was four guys, in different parts of the region, scrambling to figure out how they wanted to deal with it. One descended into cerebral masturbation, then went silent. Another was completely outfront, forthright, and unperturbed. He didn't have all of the information at first, as he didn't do the blending, which is weird in its own right, but he gave me the answer as soon as he had it. Another was willing to be forthright, but also got his feelings hurt, and the fourth guy was invisible throughout.

By the way, my assessment is that it should have been labeled as blended bourbon or bourbon-a blend.

If you look at the label, you can see the much bigger problem they made for themselves. Most states require that any distilled spirit product offered in the state must be offered equally to all licensees. Wild Turkey, for example, can show that it's targeting on-premise by only offering WT101 Rye in 1L bottles, but the distributor can't refuse to sell the product to off-premise accounts. Other accounts never had the opportunity to purchase Four Kings, because Binny's bought the whole run, and in reward got Binny's on the label. That is having much bigger repercussions than the other labeling snafu.

Edited May 1, 2014 by cowdery

[kickert]

I like Corsair but they're wrong for the reasons mentioned above. This kind of stuff didn't happen when Kickert worked there.

Ha! I will take that as a compliment, even if it is misplaced.

Obviously I am a bit removed from the situation (3 years and 9,000 miles) so I can't comment on the specifics, especially as it relates to Corsair, but I can say this:

The issues with the TTB are much deeper seated than most "enthusiasts" know. Obviously plenty of incorrect labels are getting through -- that is not new information. And I would say that there are probably several distilleries taking advantage of the TTB's lax monitoring. But, the errors are not just passive. I know multiple distilleries who have submitted correctly labeled COLAs and been REQUIRED to change them. Often a distillery is trying to be forthright about the providence or production of a product, and the TTB doesn't like the disclosure. At other times the TTB has required a specific spirits class even when it is not correct -- sometimes even requiring different classifications for products that are virtually identical.

At the end of the day, the TTB regulations and processes are behind the times and not able to adequately handle how the industry has evolved in the last decade to include products and procedures never before imagined.

Personally my priorities on matters like this are as follows: 1) The product tastes good. 2) The distilleries are honest about the product. 3) The label is correct.

Anyway... just my thoughts... they are worth what you paid for them.

Edited May 2, 2014 by kickert
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[miller542]

What an entertaining thread.

After all is said and done, hopefully the issues with this release won't deter future collaborations. The initial idea was a good one, the big boys have done similar bottlings. One thing the crafts need to remember, putting multiple uninteresting products together in the same bottle doesn't automatically make the final product interesting. The end result is what matters.

And as we know, labelling has become an increasingly slippery slope. As stated much earlier in the discussion, its up to us to stand guard and know what we're supporting with our dollars.

[Vietish]

I was just surfing the Bay and saw Four Kings going for 109euro and how it was controversial and checked out the listing. Guess what web site and thread was linked in the description!