About All Things Pappy/VanWinkle

[Guinny_Ire]

Advanced Taster, I didn't call them out as they're out by my brother, whereas I'm where the 2 major highways meet in the middle of the county, and they're not in my travel route.  My only beef with said retailer  is their tasting room. Have a lottery, have a bidding war, don't be a bar. If someone wants to pay for an expensive pour there is Gamlins, the Four Seasons, etc. (And I've not been to either). Other than my opionion on that, I've heard they are a pretty good store.  I"m assuming you're talking about the store on Manchester across from the dealerships.

 

 

[Guardian Enzo]

Maybe I'm in the minority on this, but I've always thought it was more fair to just hold a damn lottery and give everybody a small chance rather than try and extort as much as you can over the course of the year for mediocre liquor and give the allotted stuff to the highest bidder.

[smokinjoe]

We all know the game.  You ask, and you get back Yes, or No.  Whatever reason they give and why they do it really is irrelevant.  I would think that if you're continuing to spend what you would consider a lot of money and time at a store that is not rewarding you with access to the bottles you want...well, it's time to find another store.  

[lcpfratn]

I agree with those that expect honesty from their liquor retailer. I also agree that each retailer has to determine how they want to deal with the LE and allocated whiskey, and what practice is the best for their overall business. I've stopped doing much business with stores that I've determined have lied to me rather than give an honest answer to THE question.

Of course every state is different regarding how liquor is sold, so what works for me and others in TN may not work in other states. The good thing about TN is that corporate ownership of liquor stores is not allowed, so you don't have the large corporate stores that limit your ability to establish a relationship with an owner or manager. However, this also means that our prices tend to be a bit higher sometimes than states that have liquor sales in Costco and other large chains.

I have established relationships, and spend enough money at several stores that I get thrown a bone every now and then. Now I really don't ever expect to get any Pappy 23, but an occasional BTAC or Van Winkle 10-15 year might be a possibility through those relationships. These stores obviously like to reward their best customers as best they can.

Other stores have lotteries and some even set a date for all remotely allocated stuff and let people line up for first come first serve on one item and then go back to the end of the line and hope to get something of lesser value next time around. Both of these alleviate any favoritism or issues of unfairness, but in my opinion it doesn't help their business throughout the year, so its not what I would do if it was my business in TN. There are others of course that just sell it for as much as they can. One store I shop at does it this way for Pappy Van Winkle and BTAC stuff, but puts most everything else out on the shelf. So I still shop there because I find other allocated and LE stuff regularly on the shelf at reasonable prices.


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[smokinjoe]

Honestly, don't we all know by now that if you have to ask...you already know what the answer is.  

 

 

[Tennessee Dave]

Well I have been using the same liquor store here in the Chattanooga area since 2005 when I could walk in and buy everything except the Pappy 23 right off the shelf.  I buy everything there except beer because of the ridiculous TN laws that only allow high gravity beers to be sold in liquor stores.  After the Van wWnkle line became "rare" I was always notified that the store was getting Van Winkle and a bottle was reserved for me.  This continues to be the case to this day.  I have never paid more than retail.  I am thankful for this relationship with this store and they appreciate my patronage.  I still think that establishing a long term relationship of loyalty not only pays when trying to find the HTF's but loyalty is rewarded in life as well.  Don't expect to walk into just anywhere these days and get on a list and be successful.  That's just being naive.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Tennessee Dave

[smokinjoe]

9 minutes ago, Tennessee Dave said:

Well I have been using the same liquor store here in the Chattanooga area since 2005 when I could walk in and buy everything except the Pappy 23 right off the shelf.  I buy everything there except beer because of the ridiculous TN laws that only allow high gravity beers to be sold in liquor stores.  After the Van wWnkle line became "rare" I was always notified that the store was getting Van Winkle and a bottle was reserved for me.  This continues to be the case to this day.  I have never paid more than retail.  I am thankful for this relationship with this store and they appreciate my patronage.  I still think that establishing a long term relationship of loyalty not only pays when trying to find the HTF's but loyalty is rewarded in life as well.

...since 2005...

...I buy everything there...

...establishing a long term relationship...

 

Cheers!  Well done, Dave.  

 

Y'all, when you look at it, this gentleman and thousands more like him are who you are competing with.  And, as I said earlier, there are guys like loyal Dave here, who still can get shut out.  

 

It is, what it is.  But I know, doesn't mean ya gotta like it...

[Clueby]

1 hour ago, smokinjoe said:

Honestly, don't we all know by now that if you have to ask...you already know what the answer is.  

 

 

But the things asked about weren't "the pappiez". I would ask about OWA, ER10, or MAYBE ETL and get the same..."we didn't get any" and treated like I DID ask for a unicorn...while they were holding it.  Yes...time to find a new store. Actually I've FOUND new stores that are getting my business.

[smokinjoe]

21 minutes ago, Clueby said:

Actually I've FOUND new stores that are getting my business.

Bingo! 

[jvd99]

Exactly

 

Edit:  Ha ha - forgot the quote.  But it's a +1 for honesty in the industry

Edited December 8, 2016 by jvd99

[jvd99]

11 hours ago, smokinjoe said:

We all know the game.  You ask, and you get back Yes, or No.  Whatever reason they give and why they do it really is irrelevant.  I would think that if you're continuing to spend what you would consider a lot of money and time at a store that is not rewarding you with access to the bottles you want...well, it's time to find another store.  

 

That time has come with me.  I spent a year specifically working one store and one manager in particular.  I still got the runaround so for the majority of my purchases, I'll go to my local from whom I still get LEs.  For certain scotches, Binny's is the only game in town, unfortunately.

 

3 hours ago, smokinjoe said:

Honestly, don't we all know by now that if you have to ask...you already know what the answer is.  

 

 

 

True statement for sure, something I've probably said myself somewhere on these boards.  But when developing a new source, you do have to ask the first couple of years.  After that, if you don't know you're getting a bottle before it comes out, the answer is most likely you're SOL and everyone knows but you. 

[Sluffo]

I walked into a store last November and asked if any Van Winkle products were still around knowing that they had received some the day before but fully expecting the usual answer of "Nope".  I was originally told there was nothing and then the manager looked up and said "I recognize you.  You come in here a lot don't you?".  That led to him saying there might be a few bottles of something left the next week if people in "the list" didn't respond.  He took my name and number.  Sure enough five or six days later he called and said there was a bottle of 12 year Lot B available if I still wanted it.  When I went to pick it up we started chatting and he said the best way to get on said list was to shop at that store exclusively (which I already did) and that now that he knew what I liked he would let me know when things came in.  Over the last year I've been offered quite a few alloted things, but certainly not everything.  By this fall I was able to get BTAC, Pappy, 4RLE, PHC.  It's true that store loyalty and genuine interest in these people goes a long way when there are so many people looking for the same thing. 

[elmossle]

Store loyalty is the only way to go, but never a given you will get what you want. I have a store owner who calls me regularly when they get anything of note in let alone any LE's. But I have talked to this owner for years now and buy the wife's wine and the occasional beer there as well. In years past, I have counted on getting at least 1 bottle of BTAC or VW from this store for the collection and figured the same would happen again this year. Funny thing is I haven't gotten a call from them at all about LE's this fall. Now that doesn't mean I have fallen from the top of the list as it where. The store has gotten shutout on a lot of products this fall for some reason and it isn't just bourbon. 

 

I could usually count on a case of Goose Island BCBS from this retailer, but got nothing this year. I got nothing because they got nothing. While building a long standing and quality relationship with your Local Store is best practice, it does not mean you are guaranteed a bottle of whatever you want. It is a weird changing landscape these days and we just have to try and keep up the best we can.

[Tennessee Dave]

The store I buy from only got a total of 6 bottles of VW this year with 3 of them being the 10 year old.  I could see how I could have missed out very easily even though I buy everything at that store.  Someone is sure to be disappointed.  I just think your odds increase exponentially if you establish a strong relationship with a particular store preferably a Mom and Pop type that is well run and stocked.

[BottledInBond]

All the comments about long term relationships and store loyalty are legit. I frequent more than just one store but it's only a few, and I try to spread out my purchases between them so I am buying from each consistently. I already know that my best store is getting their VW allocation, and I will stop in tomorrow and pick up my bottle, although I don't know which it will be yet. It is a good situation to be sure but I thought I would add in two additional comments for this thread:

 

1- I have not only built mutually beneficial business relationships with a few owners/managers, but actual friendships. I've got some guys that I genuinely enjoy seeing, I'll bring in bottles to share a dram with them regularly, I see them out and about in the community besides just at their store. To be there are benefits to that whole scenario above and beyond just access to a few LE bottles per year. I grew up in a small town and value that stuff now that I live in a large metro area.

 

2- it really sucks when one of these people sells their store or moves to a different job! I had 2 people that I had known for a few years disappear from their respective stores this year. Not only am I out a friendly face I enjoy catching up with, but also potentially have lost my "preferred status" at that store. Panic ensues. With a little deep breathing, I stayed calm long enough to realize that in one of those situations the manager was replaced by an assistant manager from another one of my regular stores! I consider that some type of good karma.

 

All this said, I had thought I would just chime in on this thread about the relationship aspects that were being discussed. This thread is supposed to be specific to Pappiez. For the record, I don't really care about the Van Winkle line at all at this point. I think it is incredibly overhyped, I think the quality has degraded to a point where I don't even think they are worth the MSRP if you are tasting them blind, and I really only buy them to share with friends that are excited about them. 

[ThirstyinOhio]

If I owned a store, I'd reward my biggest customers as that only makes sense and I'd tell anyone asking about hard to get items the truth that they need to spend $$$ if they want the hard to get items..  I do 90% of my liquor buying at one store and have done so for a long time now and they reward me with allocated bottles through out the year, but I do recognize and understand that if someone new comes in spending more than me that I may get shut out.  I've also camped out over night and have gotten lucky in a raffle at other stores, but I'd much rather be rewarded for my loyalty through out the year. 

 

Binny's has gotten ripped in this thread and I'd just like to say that every interaction I've ever had with them has been great.  I use to be able to get a BTAC or PVW in the past before they changed their allocation strategy, but I don't begrudge them for not hooking me up any more.  I still purchase items from them on occasion when they get an item that Ohio has decided not to bother bringing into the state and will continue to do so, but I can understand being frustrated at being lied to.  As SmokinJoe said, if you have to ask you probably now the answer already. 

Edited December 8, 2016 by ThirstyinOhio

[dSculptor]

I just let all the young guys with deep pockets have their fun nowadays, the stuff just lost it's allure for me. But on another note, I have developed a relationship with a LS ...who just likes me, I don't even shop there regularly, but have been around for a long time, they call me every time they get something in. I used to be the first name on the Pappy list, but it got so long that they said I would have to wait until it comes all the way around again. They just called me yesterday about the WR, .....I passed , but we talked for awhile and I asked out of curiosity what they got this year, they said only a couple of 10's and a couple of 12's..(if I would take anything it would be the 15).They said that I'm back on top for next year. I do get a bottle of GTS (the only one they get) every year though (my fav) which they give me exclusively. I could not thank them enough! Merry x-mas!

Point is -- Sometimes  (although rare) it's not about the money you spend but just who you are. A hug goes along way nowadays.......!

[Sean Bond]

1 hour ago, ThirstyinOhio said:

If I owned a store, I'd reward my biggest customers as that only makes sense and I'd tell anyone asking about hard to get items the truth that they need to spend $$$ if they want the hard to get items..  I do 90% of my liquor buying at one store and have done so for a long time now and they reward me with allocated bottles through out the year, but I do recognize and understand that if someone new comes in spending more than me that I may get shut out.  I've also camped out over night and have gotten lucky in a raffle at other stores, but I'd much rather be rewarded for my loyalty though out the year. 

 

Binny's has gotten ripped in this thread and I'd just like to say that every interaction I've ever had with them has been great.  I use to be able to get a BTAC or PVW in the past before they changed their allocation strategy, but I don't begrudge them for not hooking me up any more.  I still purchase items from them on occasion when they get an item that Ohio has decided not to bother bringing into the state and will continue to do so, but I can understand being frustrated at being lied to.  As SmokinJoe said, if you have to ask you probably now the answer already. 

For what it's worth, I have no real issue with Binny's other than that their current Pappy policy at some stores is a little shady (from what I've heard; not from what I've experienced). The one I go to seems fine, it's just impossible to find the guy that can get you on the list. The funny thing is, I actually had an in at this particular Binny's for a while, but the guy moved on to bigger and better things. 

 

The real problem, as other's have mentioned, is how weird the bourbon market is in general now. The fact that a bourbon like ETL never makes it onto the shelves of most Binny's, that something like ER10 is in the same saferoom as a $10k bottle of Macallan, etc., tells you how intense bourbon buyers have become. The real frustration is the fact that to get or even try to get any allocated bourbon (Weller, ETL, you name it), you have to bug some poor guy from the warehouse. It sucks for everyone around.

 

I envy the people on this forum who have local liquor stores that aren't huge chains that they can go to for limited stuff; I have a few places I give most of my business to in Chicago when possible, but the liquor market here is such that a lot of them just don't get in that caliber of whiskey (so I still need to hunt elsewhere). Definitely makes things more fun being able to give all your money to a person/place you have a genuine connection with.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Sean Bond

[jvd99]

15 hours ago, Sluffo said:

I walked into a store last November and asked if any Van Winkle products were still around knowing that they had received some the day before but fully expecting the usual answer of "Nope".  I was originally told there was nothing and then the manager looked up and said "I recognize you.  You come in here a lot don't you?".  That led to him saying there might be a few bottles of something left the next week if people in "the list" didn't respond.  He took my name and number.  Sure enough five or six days later he called and said there was a bottle of 12 year Lot B available if I still wanted it.  When I went to pick it up we started chatting and he said the best way to get on said list was to shop at that store exclusively (which I already did) and that now that he knew what I liked he would let me know when things came in.  Over the last year I've been offered quite a few alloted things, but certainly not everything.  By this fall I was able to get BTAC, Pappy, 4RLE, PHC.  It's true that store loyalty and genuine interest in these people goes a long way when there are so many people looking for the same thing. 

 

That's great.  I live by this exact method of developing relationships to get the LE's.  Not sure if you're talking about Binny's though.  If you are, I did the exact same thing, and got blown off big time, embarrassingly so.  That inconsistency between stores is what's infuriating. 

 

3 hours ago, ThirstyinOhio said:

Binny's has gotten ripped in this thread and I'd just like to say that every interaction I've ever had with them has been great.  I use to be able to get a BTAC or PVW in the past before they changed their allocation strategy, but I don't begrudge them for not hooking me up any more.  I still purchase items from them on occasion when they get an item that Ohio has decided not to bother bringing into the state and will continue to do so, but I can understand being frustrated at being lied to.  As SmokinJoe said, if you have to ask you probably now the answer already. 

 

It's fun to rip into the corporate giants every once in a while.  My (our) grousing will have absolutely no impact on their bottom line so I continue to be begrudged

[fishnbowljoe]

On a personal note, and in defense of Binny's, I've been at Binny's a couple of times with some other members when we were working on our SBHHSS bottlings. You wouldn't believe the number of phone calls that came in to their Whiskey Hot Line regarding Pappy, BTAC etc... during the time that we were there. It was absolutely freakin' crazy. Just sayin'.

 

Cheers! Joe

[zman1974]

First post.  Honored to have purchased a 20 year today at retail price.  I am just dipping into the world of fine bourbon (coming from fine wine).  Fortunate to have had the opportunity, and looking forward to learning and sharing our mutual interest in this delicious spirit.  

[Richnimrod]

1 minute ago, zman1974 said:

First post.  Honored to have purchased a 20 year today at retail price.  I am just dipping into the world of fine bourbon (coming from fine wine).  Fortunate to have had the opportunity, and looking forward to learning and sharing our mutual interest in this delicious spirit.  

Good for You, Zman1974!    Many have tried, and so few are able to say they've succeeded.      It's pretty good Bourbon... and, everybody should try some iteration of Pappy at least once.    The Price/Value Ratio is rather off-putting for me; but at retail, you'll never have a better opportunity to own an icon of the genre.

Welcome to 'the board'.    You might wanna consider an introduction on the 'New to SB' section.   Up to you.

[jvd99]

2 hours ago, fishnbowljoe said:

On a personal note, and in defense of Binny's, I've been at Binny's a couple of times with some other members when we were working on our SBHHSS bottlings. You wouldn't believe the number of phone calls that came in to their Whiskey Hot Line regarding Pappy, BTAC etc... during the time that we were there. It was absolutely freakin' crazy. Just sayin'.

 

Cheers! Joe

 

No doubt they get a tone of calls, but that's the nature of the business.  I'm sure there are plenty of fanatics also chasing scotch, tequila, beers etc. that are equally persistent who light up their phone lines.  It just goes with the territory of running such a huge liquor franchise.  If they published a simple company-wide policy on their Whisky Hotline website, fielding those calls would be so easy and everyone would know where they stand - "Thanks for calling.  Our policy regarding the purchase of BTAC/Pappy can be found on our Whisky Hotline website."  So much more transparent and efficient.

[mbroo5880i]

I encounter a variety of people with a broad range of interest in and experience with bourbon.  Almost every person I encounter brings up the subject of Pappy at some point early in our conversation.  I am certain that most of us encounter this experience as we are into bourbon and most of our friends and acquaintances know it.   However, I rarely share my opinion pro or con because the "pursuit of Pappy" has fallen so far off my radar.  I have no opinion of those that do pursue it nor do I really care about flippers.  My game piece isn't on the board.

 

I don't waste my time or others time raising the topic of Pappy or BTAC.   While I used to hunt and call, I no longer ask stores if or when they will receive shipments or to put me on a waiting list.  I no longer go to events centered around drawings for the right to purchase any of these items.  I do enter online drawings or lotteries but with little expectation of winning since these are greatly oversubscribed.  

 

I do establish relationships with local store managers, including sharing pours of unique bottles that I obtain, but never with the intent of obtaining special bottles.  I just like to talk about bourbon and new products that are available.  I like trying new and different things.  While I often to not get to try them on the first go around, I generally get to eventually.  

 

With respect to bourbon, times are uncertain and the market is unpredictable but there is so much good stuff out there that I don't feel the need to sweat chasing down Pappy, BTAC or LEs.  If one falls in my lap, which is how they have in the past, I generally accept because I appreciate the rarity and difficulty in obtaining it.  I wish all who are "hunting" the best in their search.  It is challenging and can be fun. It's just not for me.

[Bourbonmakesmepoop]

2 hours ago, mbroo5880i said:

I encounter a variety of people with a broad range of interest in and experience with bourbon.  Almost every person I encounter brings up the subject of Pappy at some point early in our conversation.  I am certain that most of us encounter this experience as we are into bourbon and most of our friends and acquaintances know it.   However, I rarely share my opinion pro or con because the "pursuit of Pappy" has fallen so far off my radar.  I have no opinion of those that do pursue it nor do I really care about flippers.  My game piece isn't on the board.

 

I don't waste my time or others time raising the topic of Pappy or BTAC.   While I used to hunt and call, I no longer ask stores if or when they will receive shipments or to put me on a waiting list.  I no longer go to events centered around drawings for the right to purchase any of these items.  I do enter online drawings or lotteries but with little expectation of winning since these are greatly oversubscribed.  

 

I do establish relationships with local store managers, including sharing pours of unique bottles that I obtain, but never with the intent of obtaining special bottles.  I just like to talk about bourbon and new products that are available.  I like trying new and different things.  While I often to not get to try them on the first go around, I generally get to eventually.  

 

With respect to bourbon, times are uncertain and the market is unpredictable but there is so much good stuff out there that I don't feel the need to sweat chasing down Pappy, BTAC or LEs.  If one falls in my lap, which is how they have in the past, I generally accept because I appreciate the rarity and difficulty in obtaining it.  I wish all who are "hunting" the best in their search.  It is challenging and can be fun. It's just not for me.

That is what they call "bourbon zen".

i am starting to share this mindset several years into my hobby but I'm not quite there yet. I do see myself getting there much sooner than expected though.