skltbref Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 Hi all, I'm a bourbon-loving college student who just happens to be researching a fairly common topic around here--bourbon! I've been exploring its history/roots, creation process, modern distilleries, et cetera (all kinds of good stuff), and have learned quite a bit. (Someone once said the best way to learn about something you aren't familiar with is to write a book on it. While I'm only writing a paper, I think it still holds true!) This board has been a nice resource in my learning process. When I first started researching bourbon I thought that there might be some sort of distinguishing bourbon characterstic for different regions/counties in Kentucky. However, I haven't really found anything to support this idea. The fact that most of the distilleries are within close proximity of one another definitely doesn't help. I'm also thinking that the tight regulations that distillers have to follow cuts back on the possibility of having bourbons of large varieties (I'm not trying to step on toes here; I'm talking about varieties like you would find comparing scotch to bourbon). Instead, it appears that the different varieties in bourbon that do exist stem more from tradition and brands/marketing than geography. I think that the differences I was initially looking for don't exist because I should be looking at Kentucky as a region in the world of whiskey, rather than different bourbons in the world of.. well.. bourbons. Do any of you have any information to support or refute my initial idea of regional distinctions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TNbourbon Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 You're right, there is nothing like wine's 'terroir' in the bourbon industry. As you suspect, bourbon's legal definition makes the method of production pretty universal. However, variances in the mash bill (mixture of grains) and yeast culture (just about every distillery has at least one proprietary yeast) lend the drink almost unlimited variation. Add to that differing times in barrel, with barrels stored in variable settings (different floors of warehouses, hilltop or valley, spring or fall bottling, et al). Even within a single brand or bottling, those changes can occur over the course of years. All of these are decisions made by humans, so even advances of technology (undeniable and, for the most part, positive) can't unify the output. That's a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black85L98 Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 No. But welcome to the fold. You must drink it to understand it. Write home for more money for research. I think you will find differences come from distillers not from geographic influences. It would be cool if half of KY was Wheat and the other half was rye because of some early grain availability in that area of the state but I do not think you will find a clear line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff Posted December 13, 2003 Share Posted December 13, 2003 While you might not find evidence to support you theories as far as the distilling process goes, you might be able to use region/climate to explore the differences in the aging process and how it affects the final product. For example, does the climate in Frankfort and Woodford County differ enough from that of Bardstown or Louisville to make a difference in how the burbon turns out after 8-10 years or so? Of course there are endless other factors at play here, but it might make an interesting discussion. Welcome to the forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowdery Posted December 13, 2003 Share Posted December 13, 2003 About the only regional difference of significance is that city-based distilleries tend to have masonry (i.e., brick) rackhouses placed close together, while country-based distilleries tend to have steel-clad rackhouses placed far apart. There are exceptions, of course, the old Stitzel-Weller plant, on the fringes of Louisville, was steel-clad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbyc Posted December 13, 2003 Share Posted December 13, 2003 Inside of the Steel Clad vs Masonry, haven't we gone over that in the past, and the smart money is on Steel Clad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowdery Posted December 14, 2003 Share Posted December 14, 2003 Well, Buffalo Trace, which has both, claims its best whiskey (e.g., Blanton's) comes from its steel-clad. However, both the Brown-Forman distillery outside Louisville and their Woodford Reserve near Versailles are masonry, so obviously both types can produce good whiskey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbyc Posted December 14, 2003 Share Posted December 14, 2003 It also seems that the masonry ones are better for the heat cycling that BT and B-F do. My thinking is that the steel clad respond more quickly to temperature changes, and the masonry units would lag a bit. Is it fair to say that none of us could taste a barrel of the same bourbon from a steel clad and a masonry rackhouse and discern the difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boone Posted December 14, 2003 Share Posted December 14, 2003 Heaven Hill does not store thier barrels in the brick warehouses at Bernhiem...They transport them to Bardstown and store them in the iron clad warehouses... Bettye Jo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbyc Posted December 14, 2003 Share Posted December 14, 2003 That's interesting, BettyeJo. Any idea why? HH has Barrels aging at what, 4 locations in Nelson County, all Iron clad. Deatsville, Hwy333 at the Old Jim Beam plant , by the rock quarry on Bloomfield road and at Heaven Hill ( Any Others?). Do you know if anyone else has whiskey stored at Bernhiem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boone Posted December 14, 2003 Share Posted December 14, 2003 I will see Craig this week...and ask him why he does that...There has got to be a beneficial reason or he would not do it... I have been to the distillery (Bernheim) many times to visit him...On more than one occasion a big old Bufflo Trace rig has been there too...Hmmmmmmm...I asked Craig, why was BT truck in the parking lot?...He said they were getting some of the "old bourbon" that was stored there...Old Schenley stuff.. Bettye Jo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckky Posted December 14, 2003 Share Posted December 14, 2003 that is very interesting about the BT rigs ...very interesting indeed...thanks...your insights are always invaluable and your stories of "the line" are informative and humorous...thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boone Posted December 14, 2003 Share Posted December 14, 2003 your stories of "the line" are informative and humorous...thanks Hmmmmmm...ya think they are humorous?....I could tell ya some stuff that "we do" (me and the fella's) that would make ya laugh until ya sides were gonna bust ...But I won't...something about likin to keep my job comes ta mind Bettye Jo BTW--We love to practical joke...Didn't want you to think that it was anything bad...just some good hearted fun... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowdery Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Is anything in the brick warehouses at Bernhiem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 About the only regional difference of significance is that city-based distilleries tend to have masonry I remember while on the Wild Turkey tour, our guide mentioned to us that they (WT) can see a difference in the aging and type of whiskey that comes out of the different rickhouses. She specifically noted a difference between aging bourbon down closer to the river versus higher up on the hill. I forget what those differences are. Anyway, so my contention is: If it makes a difference which side of a hill the bourbon is on within the same distillery, how can it not make some difference depending on what part of the state you're in. The best example I can think of is with Woodford Reserve. Till recently the only difference in the bourbon production between it and Old Forester was the location at which it did most of its aging. Both utilize masonry buildings, IIRC (although I could be wrong here). While there are "family resemblences", the tastes are notably different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightcap Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 This is a very interesting thread, but if I see people starting to use the word "brick" in their tasting notes, I'm going to call "A lovely robust bourbon, and judging by the finish, I'd say it was aged in a brick warehouse by the river that catches a little more than average morning sun." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluesbassdad Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 "A lovely robust bourbon, and judging by the finish, I'd say it was aged in a brick warehouse by the river that catches a little more than average morning sun." Dang! Ya got my mouth watering with that description. Where can I buy that bourbon? (And before Tom asks, is it available in Ohio? ) Yours truly, Dave Morefield (The Original "DaveM") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowdery Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 The taste of any given bourbon (i.e., a final, bottled product) has more to do with the profile selected for that brand by the distiller than anything else. Likewise, there's probably greater variation within a given rackhouse (high v. low, inner v. outer, etc.) than there is between rackhouses. Also, there isn't much climate variation within the core bourbon-making area of Kentucky. That said, a rackhouse at a lower elevation, near a water source, will probably have higher humidity than one at a higher elevation. Humidity, air circulation and direct sunlight probably are the crucial environmental factors, and they can can vary even at a given site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneCubeOnly Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 Humidity, air circulation and direct sunlight probably are the crucial environmental factors, and they can can vary even at a given site.I always assumed the big factor was temperature variation. Doesn't the whiskey supposedly ebb and flow in and out of the charred layer along with the hot and cold seasons/temperatures? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowdery Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 Yes, sorry, that's a given. The others are the main additional factors or (as in the case of direct sunlight) factors that bear on the temperature factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 There is a definate difference in the overall weather patterns of Bardstown and Woodford county. You're probably right that it doesn't matter enough to make a noticable difference, but it has made for an interesting conversation here . Maybe a better study might be differences in aging based upon specific rickhouse location. For example, Heaven Hill's storage facilities out in a field with full sun versus Woodford Reserve's in a shaded valley down near a creek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneCubeOnly Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 Yes, sorry, that's a given. The others are the main additional factors or (as in the case of direct sunlight) factors that bear on the temperature factor. Okay...whew! Don't worry, I wasn't pressing you on the obvious! Actually, for a second there I started questioning myself thinking "gosh, have I been sold a bill of goods by the marketing departments?"I'm surprised they haven't tinkered with the idea of controlled climate during aging. Or have they!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradox Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 I don't know if this will fit your definition of controlled Gary, but I know some warehouses do have hot water pipes going thru them for heating and such... I think Buffalo Trace may actually have been one of the first to do it(?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneCubeOnly Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 some warehouses do have hot water pipes going thru them for heating and such... Interesting! Now the question arises, would they use those to temper extreme conditions, or to enhance the temperature variation? Or is it just so the workers and tourists are comfortable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boone Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 About a month ago, we visited Lotus (Four Roses) Warehouses...We went inside to watch them load the barrels...I looked up...They had power...Lights...I said to her...WOW...you have electricity in here...I told her that the only electricity at ours was to the elevators... She told us that those warehouses (we call em flat houses) were built in the 60's...They had the forsight to install a water system to each one, in the event of a fire... The place sits on a couple hundred acres...Too much to keep mowed during the summer months...Cows are everwhere (to mow the grass)...Hmmmmmmmm...better watch where ya step ... Bettye Jo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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