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BOTM 3/16: Weller 12 Year

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GTD

I got some PMP mixed up will this count for BOTM.

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flahute
2 hours ago, GTD said:

I got some PMP mixed up will this count for BOTM.

The proper name for that is the SB Blend. It came long before someone wrote a magazine article and renamed it to capitalize on the hype.

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Quantum

I used to drink W12 pretty regularly, but I had phased it out of my rotation before it started getting hard to find.

I thought it was a solid pour, and a safe pick if there was nothing else interesting on the shelf. I did open one bottle that was spectacular, and was hands down better than the 2012 Lot B. It had a wonderful nose, and just a hint of coconut along with the familier nutty/caramel/spice profile.

With a renewed my faith in W12, I went out and picked up a handle the next day. That handle did have an epically long finish, but unfortunately it tasted like it had previously been used to rinse out an industrial smokestack. I tried pouring a few oz into an empty 750 ml bottle, to see if some airtime would help. I tried mixing it. I tried using it in the sb blend. I even tried using it to make bbq sauce. Nothing could cover up that bitter, sooty flavor, and the aftertaste could wreck your palate for hours. After close to a year, I finally drain poured it. 

I have opened about 5 bottles since then, and they have all been somewhere between the two previously mentioned bottles. Other than one bottle, none of them have been good enough to put up with the batch variation.

The glass I am sipping now is solid, but this is one age statement I wouldn't mind seeing dropped.

Edited by Quantum

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smokinjoe
50 minutes ago, Quantum said:

I used to drink W12 pretty regularly, but I had phased it out of my rotation before it started getting hard to find.

I thought it was a solid pour, and a safe pick if there was nothing else interesting on the shelf. I did open one bottle that was spectacular, and was hands down better than the 2012 Lot B. It had a wonderful nose, and just a hint of coconut along with the familier nutty/caramel/spice profile.

With a renewed my faith in W12, I went out and picked up a handle the next day. That handle did have an epically long finish, but unfortunately it tasted like it had previously been used to rinse out an industrial smokestack. I tried pouring a few oz into an empty 750 ml bottle, to see if some airtime would help. I tried mixing it. I tried using it in the sb blend. I even tried using it to make bbq sauce. Nothing could cover up that bitter, sooty flavor, and the aftertaste could wreck your palate for hours. After close to a year, I finally drain poured it. 

I have opened about 5 bottles since then, and they have all been somewhere between the two previously mentioned bottles. Other than one bottle, none of them have been good enough to put up with the batch variation.

The glass I am sipping now is solid, but this is one age statement I wouldn't mind seeing dropped.

Sootiness is the perfect descriptor for my complaints.  I mentioned "thin and astringent", but "sooty" is better.  And, it's not like I have an aversion to older aged bourbons, either.  

Your last paragraph is particularly agreeable to me.  Dropping the age statement, and dialing in a slightly younger profile would do it wonders for my tastes.  FWIW, I think the last couple of ORVW 10 yrs have been stellar IMO.  So, maybe 10 yrish as a target ?  And, toss in a bit more proof, too?  Then, put it on a squatty, short, square bottle?  :D

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GTD
22 hours ago, flahute said:

The proper name for that is the SB Blend. It came long before someone wrote a magazine article and renamed it to capitalize on the hype.

Sorry Steve.  One of the other boards I follow calls it PMP. My apologies:D

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Flyfish
On ‎3‎/‎17‎/‎2016‎ ‎4‎:‎17‎:‎42‎, smokinjoe said:

 FWIW, I think the last couple of ORVW 10 yrs have been stellar IMO.  So, maybe 10 yrish as a target ?  And, toss in a bit more proof, too?  Then, put it on a squatty, short, square bottle?  :D

+1 on the ORVW but it is even harder to find than the W12. Besides, I lean more toward OWA than W12. But it has been a while since I have seen OWA either. So, I'm batting 0 for 3.

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PaulO

Like the W12, I have also experienced tremendous differences between different bottles of ORVW.  The last bottle I had (several years ago) was the 90 proof in the anchor bottle.  It was no better than a mediocre batch of W12.

Given that I've seen new bottles of Weller SR recently, I'm hopeful OWA may appear.  

 

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beasled

Not seen this in the UK for a while but I do have a bottle in the bunker. I must say out of the 12 year wheaters I do prefer Old Fitz 12 which you can still find in some places (and I have a few of those bunkered) but I may just crack that Weller 12 to revisit. 

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Kepler
On 3/17/2016 at 10:13 PM, flahute said:

The proper name for that is the SB Blend. It came long before someone wrote a magazine article and renamed it to capitalize on the hype.

Do whiskey abbreviations have a proper names, or can people call them what they want?  I don't have a problem with PMP if that's what he wants to call it.

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Kepler

I much prefer Weller 12 to OWA.  I can't say it's in my top 5 but I have to admit there are times when a good wheated bourbon like W12 really hits the spot.  I have a few bottles of in my cabinet, probably need to add another bottle or 2 just for adequate backup!

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flahute
9 minutes ago, Kepler said:

Do whiskey abbreviations have a proper names, or can people call them what they want?  I don't have a problem with PMP if that's what he wants to call it.

The person that created the blend, from this forum, called it the SB blend, or, the StraightBourbon blend - a clear reference to this site. The person who called it PMP took the blend with an existing name and renamed it (improperly) with a name intended to capitalize on the bourbon boom, and specifically, all things Pappy. The irony is that the blend was intended to replicate Weller Centennial and not any of the Van Winkles. The resultant average age and proof of the blend are very close to WC but do not at all resemble any of the Van Winkles. This tells us that those who use the PMP name don't know as much as they think they do. 

 

So, someone could call it what they want, but they would displaying ignorance by doing so. 

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Kepler

I've tried "the blend" and you are right, it doesn't taste anything like Pappy.  But who cares what people call it.  It's a homemade mixture of different bottles somebody made up.  They can't trademark it.  Only the producer can do that.   But I see your perspective, it's a pride thing with this site.  I just don't see the point of policing language of what amounts to jargon.  But I am somewhat new to this site (as a commentator, not a reader) so I don't mean to ruffle any feathers here.  It just struck me as odd.  

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flahute
29 minutes ago, Kepler said:

I've tried "the blend" and you are right, it doesn't taste anything like Pappy.  But who cares what people call it.  It's a homemade mixture of different bottles somebody made up.  They can't trademark it.  Only the producer can do that.   But I see your perspective, it's a pride thing with this site.  I just don't see the point of policing language of what amounts to jargon.  But I am somewhat new to this site (as a commentator, not a reader) so I don't mean to ruffle any feathers here.  It just struck me as odd.  

It's less a matter of policing and more a matter of both education and encouragement to not be part of the Pappy Van Winkle hype machine that has a stranglehold on the less educated segment of this hobby. 

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Richnimrod
6 hours ago, flahute said:

It's less a matter of policing and more a matter of both education and encouragement to not be part of the Pappy Van Winkle hype machine that has a stranglehold on the less educated segment of this hobby. 

...And, a matter of using common terms  (or at least terms commonly agreed upon) so everybody AT THIS SITE is aware of what you're referring to when the abbreviation is used.    Nothing more than 'understanabilitry', if that's word.

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DonutsNBourbon

thanks for the information, Flahute.  I actually have read it as the SB blend on another site, I don't remember which, but they also referred to it as PMP.  Good to know the full history of it.

 

As for W12... I loved this stuff for a while, but then got into a minor disagreement with it as it didn't taste right to me for quite a few months so I stopped drinking it.  Tried it again last night, and it tastes right as rain again.  

Edited by DonutsNBourbon

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fenderbender4

I would really love to find a bottle of Weller 12 and give it a shot.  I like the OWA but not the Special Reserve, that was just way too acetony for me.  Unfortunately it is hard to find these days, due to the "Pappy" connotations, although why people think Weller 12 is Pappy is beyond me.  If Weller 12 was Pappy, then the barrels would be moved to become Pappy.  Isn't that correct or something like that?

 

It was kind of funny, I was in a store a little while ago and someone was talking to a store clerk and the guy said that, "Pappy 20 was the best I've ever tasted, then Weller 12.  Pappy 23 was just dust." and kind of seemed disparaging about all the other bourbons on the shelf.  In some ways it's kind of tragic as I do believe there are a lot of really good bourbons being made today.  Do they taste the same as Pappy (probably not, never had it myself)?  No, but isn't that part of why we all like bourbons/whiskeys?  They all taste different and those differences are often the very qualities that make a whiskey stand out.

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Kepler

"... why people think Weller 12 is Pappy is beyond me.  If Weller 12 was Pappy, then the barrels would be moved to become Pappy.  Isn't that correct or something like that?"

 

Fenderbender4,

But the thing is, Weller actually is Pappy, in a way.  Or more accurately, current Pappy (not the old stuff) is Weller.  Same recipe, different aging and tasting treatment.  Hence, the hype of Pappy does affect W12 supplies, and logically so, from a market standpoint anyway.

 

Besides, they don't want to turn very much of the Weller products into Van Winkle because that would destroy their marketing strategy of severely limiting supply to create built-in demand.  Better to continue what they are doing, which is tying the mass produced stuff to the Pappy mystique in order to sell more product overall.  I guess.

 

Regardless, to my taste buds, "the blend" (SB Blend or PMP, or whatever you want to call it) doesn't taste like any Pappy I've had.  I mean, it does have a similar wheated bourbon taste profile, but not in the same class obviously.

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fenderbender4
11 hours ago, Kepler said:

"... why people think Weller 12 is Pappy is beyond me.  If Weller 12 was Pappy, then the barrels would be moved to become Pappy.  Isn't that correct or something like that?"

 

Fenderbender4,

But the thing is, Weller actually is Pappy, in a way.  Or more accurately, current Pappy (not the old stuff) is Weller.  Same recipe, different aging and tasting treatment.  Hence, the hype of Pappy does affect W12 supplies, and logically so, from a market standpoint anyway.

 

Besides, they don't want to turn very much of the Weller products into Van Winkle because that would destroy their marketing strategy of severely limiting supply to create built-in demand.  Better to continue what they are doing, which is tying the mass produced stuff to the Pappy mystique in order to sell more product overall.  I guess.

 

Regardless, to my taste buds, "the blend" (SB Blend or PMP, or whatever you want to call it) doesn't taste like any Pappy I've had.  I mean, it does have a similar wheated bourbon taste profile, but not in the same class obviously.

 

Yeah, I get the marketing force behind the hype.  To me, bourbon depends on a lot of factors, the mashbill being only part of the equation.  To use the mashbill as the sole mark of bourbon qualities, kind of does disservice and dismisses the skills of the distillers, tasters, and choices that go into everything else.  At least that's what's implied (to me) by the logic of Weller 12 = Pappy.  I could be wrong.

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Charlutz
On April 27, 2016 at 1:00 AM, Kepler said:

"... why people think Weller 12 is Pappy is beyond me.  If Weller 12 was Pappy, then the barrels would be moved to become Pappy.  Isn't that correct or something like that?"

 

Fenderbender4,

But the thing is, Weller actually is Pappy, in a way.  Or more accurately, current Pappy (not the old stuff) is Weller.  Same recipe, different aging and tasting treatment.  Hence, the hype of Pappy does affect W12 supplies, and logically so, from a market standpoint anyway.

 

Besides, they don't want to turn very much of the Weller products into Van Winkle because that would destroy their marketing strategy of severely limiting supply to create built-in demand.  Better to continue what they are doing, which is tying the mass produced stuff to the Pappy mystique in order to sell more product overall.  I guess.

 

Regardless, to my taste buds, "the blend" (SB Blend or PMP, or whatever you want to call it) doesn't taste like any Pappy I've had.  I mean, it does have a similar wheated bourbon taste profile, but not in the same class obviously.

 

I disagree. You are totally discounting the aging process by saying it's the same. It's not. If it was, they'd sell more Pappy at its higher price point. The wellers are scarce as well and still holding at a low retail price when you can find them. Those are not the signs of a company creating hype to sell product. 

 

You are also not giving BT credit for holding their price points when they could be the absolute pinnacle of the price point and still sell out. They are clearly NOT creating false demand to take advantage of it. In fact, there's a decent opinion that if they raised their price point, they'd help the market for actual consumers by making it less advantageous to flip with smaller margins. 

 

As for PMP, the collective hive is calling it SB blend. No need to give an alternate designation and confuse new readers of the site. It's hard enough grasping all of the existing acronyms. 

Edited by Charlutz

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flahute
3 hours ago, Charlutz said:

In fact, there's a decent opinion that if they raised their price point, they'd help the market for actual consumers by making it less advantageous to flip with smaller margins. 
 

I used to hold this opinion back when older Willett Family Estate bottles sold for $300+ at secondary. Willett then raised their prices to $300+ to combat those prices. The result was that the same bottles now sell for $600+ at secondary. They sell out just as fast if not faster too.

 

I applaud BT for holding their prices. Raising them will not make the whiskey any easier to get.

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Kepler
6 hours ago, Charlutz said:

 

You are totally discounting the aging process by saying it's the same.

Charlutz,

You might want to re-read what I wrote:  "Same recipe, different aging "

Is that not clear enough?

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Kepler
7 hours ago, Charlutz said:

You are also not giving BT credit for holding their price points when they could be the absolute pinnacle of the price point and still sell out. They are clearly NOT creating false demand to take advantage of it. In fact, there's a decent opinion that if they raised their price point, they'd help the market for actual consumers by making it less advantageous to flip with smaller margins. 


I actually believe they would help the market by adjusting their prices upwards for the really good stuff (Pappy, Stagg, William Larue, etc) because it would help get the product closer to its natural equilibrium in the marketplace.  If they retailed the stuff at, say $400 suddenly there wouldn't be the feeding frenzy every autumn.  The fall release ritual is what keeps Buffalo Trace in the bourbon news headlines and brings a certain cache to their brand.  What other consumer product do you know that creates such a buying craze that people are willing to go to the lengths we do in order to chase down a bottle?


Btw, I never said that Pappy wasn't  much much better than Weller 12, I just said it was essentially the same product with the same recipe.  Obviously the aging process is what separates the run of the mill W12/OWA from the high end Van Winkle products.  Presumably, the same goes for Stagg vs Eagle Rare (same mash bill)...

Edited by Kepler

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fishnbowljoe

FWIW, the Wellers and Van Winkles are all the same mash bill, and the aging process is the same. A twelve year old wheater, is a twelve year old wheater. The only difference might possibly be where they are aged. It's unknown whether Julian just has his pick of barrels for the Van Winkles, or, if his barrels might be aged in different warehouses, and/or different floors in different warehouses. 

 

Cheers! Joe

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flahute
40 minutes ago, Kepler said:


If they retailed the stuff at, say $400 suddenly there wouldn't be the feeding frenzy every autumn. 

There most certainly would be. See my post above about what happened to WFE when retail was raised on them.

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Paddy

Whether it's $100 or $500 per bottle, people are gonna line up and arm wrestle bears for BTAC.

 

It ain't about the money!  ;)

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