Anyone tried or know anything about Joseph Magnus bourbon?

[MelissaM]

Great thread and amazing insight. Thank you so much for sharing. 

[Charlutz]

I tried the triple cask last night and again tonight. Last night I had some beers and a couple pours of rye first and then a two oz. pour of the JAM. I'm not big on finished whiskeys to begin with and the sherry flavor was too much for me. It's a lot more subtle than the Alberta Dark Batch, which I think has sherry in its blend rather than a sherry cask finish, but was still too much for me. Tonight, I had a 3/4 oz. pour and it was my first pour after dinner. This worked much better. To me, it's a very good dessert drink. The sweetness of the sherry finish is nice and not at all overpowering when limited to a small pour. I couldn't drink it all night or even in a heavy pour, but there is a place for it in my bar. 

[WhiskeyBlender]

Charlutz, I hear what you are saying about the sherry notes. Although the JMB Triple Cask is one of my "babies" so to speak, I have to admit that it is a little sweet for my personal tastes as an everyday sipper. I also think of it as more of a special after dinner or dessert drink. While I certainly enjoy it, I have to be in the right mood for it.  

 

Just a little more background on the JMB Triple Cask production: overall I try to keep the Oloroso, PX, and Cognac notes on the shier side when I combine these casks together when I'm building a "coupe" (i.e., a blend that is incomplete but is in progress), but I find that if I want to keep to the spirit of the original 19th century Jos. Magnus, I have to go a little deeper- but not too deep- with the sherry than what I might ordinarily do. The Cognac casks, while they certainly add some beautiful fruit aromas, are also there to help give the Bourbon some more depth on the palate, which is also what the original 1892 Magnus had. The sherry notes just don't add that the way that the Cognac does. The Cognac, particularly if it was distilled on the lees, will have the kind of fatty acids that I'm looking for to help coat the palate with a lot of richness and fullness in the mouth. (As a side note, too much fat isn't a good thing either, such as with brandies varietals like Semillon that have perhaps gone through MF.  The MF, while helping to create creaminess and richness on the palate, will also shorten the length of the finish. Thus, it has to be used sparingly and skillfully in a blend). 

 

During the summer months, I like to analyze what the finishing barrels are doing about every two weeks, because it is almost frightening to see how quickly the whiskey can absorb both sherry and harsh, unoxidized tannin notes, especially if the casks are not more on the exhausted side. In the fall and winter months, i can wait a month to six weeks before analyzing them and not have to worry so much about over-extraction. 

 

More production notes on the Jos. Magnus Cigar Blend: this idea came about as I was sitting out on my deck on a warm evening last spring, smoking my pipe, as I like to do that time of year.  I was sipping some Jos. Magnus bourbon, but somehow that just wasn't doing the trick for me while smoking the pipe. So I got out some of my other favorite Bourbons, such as Stagg, Four Roses Single Barrel, Willett rye, etc., and nothing seemed to be working for me that evening (not that those aren't all world-class whiskeys, but sometimes one's palate is just at another place at a certain time). Well, in addition to bourbon, I collect vintage Armagnacs, as I travel to the Armagnac region of France about once a year, and I got to thinking that Armagnac, with its characteristic prune (or "pruneau"), dried apricot, black fig, and sweet tobacco qualities might just be the very thing that one would need to help give the bourbon some greater length, depth, and complexity on the palate, and might work well with a cigar or pipe. Also, as brandies such as Armagnac or Cognac approach their tenth year in cask, they'll often develop a quality known as "rancio," which is a blanched almond, walnut, even blue cheese type aroma that comes from the oxidized esters of fatty acids (and brandies, when distilled on the lees, are plentiful on the fatty acids!). This rancio character, and the extra fatty acids, go a LONG way to help develop mouthfeel and richness on the palate. 

 

 I thought that by using some older Armagnac casks with light to no tannins, the bourbon could pick up more of this "rancio" character, and in general, more fatty acids that would help to give greater depth, richness, and also finesse on the palate. As I mentioned in an earlier note, I combined about 25% of the JM Triple Cask bourbon with some 11 and 18 year old 36% LDI bourbon for more spice and tobacco notes from the rye content. The tricky part is of course is to make sure there is enough wood sugar sweetness to help balance the rye and drier elements in the whiskey. When blending any barrels of bourbon together, not just this product, finding balance is key and isn't easy to do. 

 

Further production notes on the Murray Hill Club Blended Bourbon: the JMB and CB tend to be bottled right around cask strength, but with the MHC, the 9 year old light whiskey really pushes up the proof. So when we go from barrel to bottling proof, we use the French technique of "slow reduction," rather than just adding water in one proofing session. This is a traditional technique that is used for spirits, such as brandies, that are double distilled and have a lot of fatty acids and other congeners. If they are reduced with water too quickly, there is a chance they might saponify. Even if there is not a danger of saponification happening, the process of slow reduction helps to preserve aromatics that have been acquired through years of maturation. Thus, a slow reduction might be carried out over a few months to as long as 5 years before bottling, depending upon the spirit and the components. The most crucial point is around 46% ABV. Once a spirit falls to this alcohol percentage, the reduction should go particularly slow if it will be bottled below 46%. 

 

With the MHC, Magnus reduces over the course of about 3 months, and going no more than 1 or 2 degrees at a time, so for example, going from 60.5% to 58.5% ABV, then letting it rest for a week or two, then going down by 1 or 2 degrees in each reduction session until falls around 51.25% or so. 

 

At any rate, I know that sourced MGP bourbons, as well as cask finished whiskeys, aren't everyone's cup of tea, so to speak, and that is perfectly fine. However, I hope everyone who reads this will enjoy learning about the process, and to see that cellar work ("elevage") and blending ("assemblage") can be arts in themselves. 

 

With that long-winded note, cheers & Happy Holidays!

Nancy

 

 

Edited December 18, 2016 by WhiskeyBlender
typo, and forgot to add something important

[flahute]

Fantastic stuff Nancy. We're a bunch of nerds here with an insatiable thirst for knowledge about how all things whiskey are done. You are dropping that knowledge on us in spades and we are loving it. 

[Charlutz]

Wow Nancy! That's awesome. Thank you. 

[mbroo5880i]

As with the others, I wish to thank you for your posts Nancy!  I also enjoyed the article Thad shared.  You have an amazing talent and job within the spirits industry.  I can only imagine that it has been an incredible journey.  Please continue to share your perspective and insight, it is most welcome.

[dSculptor]

On ‎12‎/‎18‎/‎2016 at 8:54 AM, WhiskeyBlender said:

 

 

At any rate, I know that sourced MGP bourbons, as well as cask finished whiskeys, aren't everyone's cup of tea, so to speak, and that is perfectly fine. However, I hope everyone who reads this will enjoy learning about the process, and to see that cellar work ("elevage") and blending ("assemblage") can be arts in themselves. 

 

With that long-winded note, cheers & Happy Holidays!

Nancy

 

 

Thanks Nancy! You have a fantastic job! I  love to experiment with blending or vatting, some of them that I put out here, I think a lot of the members here may cringe on, but hey why not try it?

 

I have a question for you that has been tossed around here for quite a while ..when you are blending do you find that the mingles come right away to you or do you let them rest for a while and then come back to them? I always thought that while some characteristics may develop when you let them rest for awhile, they are there as soon as you put them together as well.

 

I didn't want to stray off subject, but I think it's still in the boundaries,  I think you could have your own thread out here. Thanks again ..a.k.a. The Madvatter...

[VAGentleman]

Just got this email today.  Are you kidding me???? $1000 for a sourced bourbon even if its aged 16-18 years.  Get real

 

J.A. Magnus Reserve - 192 bottles total - Our J.A. Magnus Reserve is a limited release series, each its own unique offering, never to be created again - this first offering is 192 bottles in its entirety and once it's gone will never exist again.  The challenge will be do you drink it, or save it for the future.  A blend of 16 and 18 year old bourbon "honey barrels" hand selected by Magnus Master Blender Nancy Fraley - carefully selected, hand blended & bottled for fullness, richness, complexity, and depth of character with dark stone fruit, cherry, and citrus on the tongue and a long smooth finish of woodspice, caramel, vanilla, honeyed hay and tobacco. 

[flahute]

$1000?? Seriously?

[tanstaafl2]

Never hurts to try I suppose. Might well be very pleasant stuff that Nancy has put together, presuming she had a role in it. But having tried (and not been exactly overwhelmed by) the Fitz 20 year old (which was basically $600 for a 750 after all) that was from a known source and long standing distillery I wouldn't be interested even if I had the money to spend. And the allusion to speculation on the bottle comes across as even more off putting. But that's just me. I am sure there will be a few takers.

 

There always are.

[flahute]

Says that Nancy selected and blended the barrels. Knowing what we know about her I'm assuming it's quite good whiskey. I'd be interested in it because of that alone. For that price though? Not a chance.

[0895]

And I thought $150 plus shipping for the "Cigar Blend" was bad...

[WhiskeyBlender]

@ dSculptor, I've been out of commission with the flu this week, so I still owe you an answer to your questions on blending. More to come on that one......

 

Regarding the comments on the Jos. A. Magnus Family Reserve and its price- as I mentioned before, I have absolutely nothing to do with setting of the price of the bourbon. I'm not in any way, form, or fashion a sales or marketing person. Gosh, if I had to make my living at that, heck, I'd be starving and in the streets for sure!

 

I will tell you that for every blend that I assemble, whether it be for Joseph Magnus or other clients that I formulate & blend for, I consider the process to be an art. That philosophy of spirits production I owe to my mentor, Master Distiller & Blender Hubert Germain-Robin. There is so much that goes into making a blend and to attaining balance, length, depth, complexity, and finesse, and to do it well and consistently every time, you've no idea how difficult that can be. Is the Family Reserve worth $1000? Honestly, I don't know. That is something a connoisseur has to assess for himself or herself. However, I did select and blend the barrels for the Family Reserve myself. I spent a LOT of time trying to get the right proportions on the balance and such, but did I get it absolutely right? I don't know for sure, but I sure hope so. For those that taste it or buy it, I hope it will be a sensory ecstasy of sorts. 

 

I know that it is sourced LDI whiskey, but I can also tell you that a lot goes into it in determining how best to balance the components and how to make it into the best blend that it can be. Is it for everyone? Probably not. Is it expensive? Heck yeah! I certainly appreciate your feedback. Since I'm not a saies person, I won't try to convince anyone to buy it. If you want to buy it, then by all means go for it. If you can try it at a bar or restaurant where it is served, maybe that's a better idea to see if you even like it. If you don't want to have anything to do with it, that's fine too. Please know, however, that even though it is sourced juice, my goal is to create liquid poetry or art with it in the blending and finishing process. Whether you like it or not, or agree with the price or not, please know that a LOT went into trying to make it the best it can be. So please judge it on the merits. Again, I have nothing to do with setting the price, so please don't hold that against me. 

 

Otherwise, I hope everyone is enjoying something delicious and bourbon-y as we approach the holiday season! Cheers to you all, 

 

N. 

[VAGentleman]

I hope you didn't take any offense to the complaining on the price.  I totally respect what you do and appreciate the time you are spending helping us to understand blending better.  I fully understood that the pricing would be with the owners and not you.  I'm sure its probably good stuff, I just won't ever be finding out unless someone offers me some for free.  Merry Christmas

[flahute]

Backing up what VA said above. We are very happy to have you here Nancy and we encourage you to keep posting. Very educational stuff in general and it gives us insights into the Magnus product in particular. We love more information here.

 

[WhiskeyBlender]

Hey there VAGentleman & Flahute,

 

No offense taken in the least! Hope I didn't come across as defensive. Sure didn't mean to if I did. I will happily always give educational information info on any blend I have created for any distillery I blend for, Magnus or otherwise (as long as I don't have a current NDA with a distillery I blend for, then all is fair game). I believe that full disclosure is crucial, and whenever I can give more info into the production process, I think it makes a connoisseur's experience of a whiskey much more meaningful. Understanding the "inside story" on the production process, at least to my mind, makes it a lot more fun as well. 

 

At any rate, I hope everyone is having a fabulous Christmas, Hanukkah, or holiday season in general. Most of all, I hope you are all imbibing something spectacular! 

 

Cheers,

Nancy

[Harry in WashDC]

As I posted on another thread (I think), I did pick up a JAM Cigar Blend at MSRP.  A couple of mornings ago before even making coffee or having anything to eat, I opened it but did not pour any, left it on the counter to go take clothes from the washer and put them in the dryer, then came back upstairs.  I was met with a fruity aroma like I get from barrel strength 4R OESQ. But this filled the kitchen rather than just hung around the bottle mouth or glass.

 

Just before dinner that night, I poured some and drank some then figured I'd set it aside until I could pick up a WR brandy finish to go with my other finished bourbons and ryes (hello, WP) before commenting on it by itself and after doing SBSs.

 

So, tonight after a dinner of prime rib and a short pour of Hudson Baby Bourbon someone gave me for Christmas, I finished washing the dishes then poured some JAM CB.  Color is light amber, and it leaves nice legs on the glass.  The aroma stayed near the glass (not surprising, given the beef smell still hanging around) but is still pleasant.  First sip was hot and reminded me of FC, but then this is 100.7 proof.  Second sip about a minute later was smooth and fruity.  The finish, indeed, lasts a long time, comparable to the mouth feel and finish I associate with vintage port, cognac and armagnac.  No real surprise there, is there.

 

I smoked a pipe for 30 years and cigars for 15 (counting the overlap).  No question in my mind that, if I still smoked, I'd still be able to taste most of the nuances in this bourbon.  Even though I no longer smoke, I did not find it overwhelming.  In fact, I found it well-balanced and subtle.  Unlike some other finished bourbons, this one does NOT taste like somebody added the grape-based spirit and forgot to mix it.

 

RE: the NDP issue.  At a tasting last month (which I also posted notes on someplace here), I explicitly and specifically asked Dave Pickerell about how WP gets the woodiness out of older products.  He said it had to do with how the NDP distillate is handled in rebarrelling - keeping tannin levels down is crucial.  He also said he watches rebarrelling in finishing barrels as it doesn't take much extra time for the whiskey to take on TOO much of the prior occupant's influence.  Personally, I don't mind MGP's products when the "rectifier" handles the blending and rebottling well, and I suppose that applies to bourbons (of which MGP sells several recipes) as it does to its ryes.

 

IN SUM - I intend on treating this like I would my better ports and the few armagnacs I have which means it gets shared after dinner and on special occasions.  Price, however, remains an encumbrance, and if I comparison shop and expand my options to include the brandies and such, JAM might not get replaced as often as other empties.

 

STILL haven't done a SBS with it and anything.  One of these days. . .

Edited December 26, 2016 by Harry in WashDC
checked my notes - WOOD not MINT; fixed

[0895]

FINALLY !!!

 

[mbroo5880i]

21 hours ago, 0895 said:

FINALLY !!!

 

 

Tell us what you think!  Several of us are going to have to live vicariously through you on this one!

 

[0895]

On 12/30/2016 at 8:44 PM, mbroo5880i said:

 

Tell us what you think!  Several of us are going to have to live vicariously through you on this one!

 

Definitely.

Probably be a bit before I crack it open though.  I like to empty one before opening a new one.

[smokinjoe]

On December 30, 2016 at 9:44 PM, mbroo5880i said:

 

Tell us what you think!  Several of us are going to have to live vicariously through you on this one!

 

Check out Harry's review above.  It sounds like it has many good things going for it for my palate preferences, at least.  But then, I'm a fan of well executed finished bourbons. 

 

BTW Harry:  Taken it out for a second spin, yet ?

[WhiskeyBlender]

That was a very good, fair review of the Cigar Blend, Harry. Many thanks. Although you no longer smoke pipes or cigars, I still very much appreciate your assessment in how it might go with them. 

 

Regarding what you noted that Dave Pickerell had said on re-barreling and keeping the tannin content in control when working with these NDP distillates, I couldn't agree more. Of course, irregardless of whether the whiskey is a NDP or not, the tannins and previous contents of the 2nd barrel can sometimes creep in to the whiskey at a scary rate. I've actually seen the tannin content of a finishing barrel destroy a perfectly good, well-balanced whiskey in LESS than 1 week's time! This happened in the summer months of course, but even so, that is why knowing the age of the finishing cask, tannin content, previous use, species of oak, length of yard seasoning time for the staves, etc., is really vital. 

 

Hope this doesn't sound too self-promotional or tacky, but some of you might want to check out the interview Mark Gillespie did with me on this week's WhiskyCast. I talk some about how I blended the Magnus line of whiskeys, but I also talk about some of the bourbons and other whiskeys I've formulated and/or blended for other distillery clients, and also I discuss the art of blending more generally. At any rate, if you listen to it, hope you enjoy it, and if not, no worries! 

 

Meanwhile, hope everyone enjoyed a great bourbon last night, and will do so again today for the New Year! 

 

Cheers,

Nancy

[namadio]

On ‎1‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 0:04 PM, WhiskeyBlender said:

That was a very good, fair review of the Cigar Blend, Harry. Many thanks. Although you no longer smoke pipes or cigars, I still very much appreciate your assessment in how it might go with them. 

 

Regarding what you noted that Dave Pickerell had said on re-barreling and keeping the tannin content in control when working with these NDP distillates, I couldn't agree more. Of course, irregardless of whether the whiskey is a NDP or not, the tannins and previous contents of the 2nd barrel can sometimes creep in to the whiskey at a scary rate. I've actually seen the tannin content of a finishing barrel destroy a perfectly good, well-balanced whiskey in LESS than 1 week's time! This happened in the summer months of course, but even so, that is why knowing the age of the finishing cask, tannin content, previous use, species of oak, length of yard seasoning time for the staves, etc., is really vital. 

 

Hope this doesn't sound too self-promotional or tacky, but some of you might want to check out the interview Mark Gillespie did with me on this week's WhiskyCast. I talk some about how I blended the Magnus line of whiskeys, but I also talk about some of the bourbons and other whiskeys I've formulated and/or blended for other distillery clients, and also I discuss the art of blending more generally. At any rate, if you listen to it, hope you enjoy it, and if not, no worries! 

 

Meanwhile, hope everyone enjoyed a great bourbon last night, and will do so again today for the New Year! 

 

Cheers,

Nancy

Thanks for all this great information!  Just started this podcast while I work.

 

Could you share a list of the distilleries you work with that do not require an NDA (perhaps another post would be most appropriate)?

 

It is really great to get this kind of insight into the spirits industry and blending is definitely something I know little about.  I have a rudimentary untrained palate and sense of smell but the nose is a huge determining factor in my favorite bourbons (I think OWA[especially store picks] and OB Lost Prophet have the best noses I've found so far).

 

What are some of your favorite bourbons and why?

 

 

SB, anyone interested in trying to organize a bottle split of JAM Reserve?  Would love to try but I definitely draw a line well below $1000 per bottle ha.

Edited January 5, 2017 by namadio

[namadio]

2 hours ago, namadio said:

Could you share a list of the distilleries you work with that do not require an NDA (perhaps another post would be most appropriate)?

 

What are some of your favorite bourbons and why?

 

Or I could have just listened to the podcast first...  great interview!

[DeepCover]

On December 12, 2016 at 8:15 PM, 0895 said:

I recently tried both, and ended up buying the Murray Hill Club (blend).

Yes, it was priced at $85.

However after 2 pours, I found it to be one of the most complex whiskeys I've ever tasted.

It intrigued and delighted my taste buds.

Initially I got some citrus and orange flavors, then some light chocolate and eventually some shortbread/biscuit type flavors.  Then the orange again.

It just kept morphing as it spent time in the glass.

Is it the best thing I've ever had, NO. --It just hits the spot for when your in that mood for something completely different.  Also for messing with your friends minds a bit.

I think I got my money's worth.

What did you think of the other one? I'm curious to see how the 2 compare.