Younger Elijah Craig vs. EC12 - I must eat crow

[smokinjoe]

5 hours ago, dSculptor said:

....and why are we calling it 1789?

 

Because Reid said so.  His power and influence in Bourbonia has no limits!!   

[Wedelstaedt]

Furthermore, how can we trust Mr. Larry Kass on anything he says about age statements.  After 2014 & 2015 he denied EC would lose the age statements. Saying these were just base less rumors. 

 

Fool me once......

[flahute]

27 minutes ago, Wedelstaedt said:

Furthermore, how can we trust Mr. Larry Kass on anything he says about age statements.  After 2014 & 2015 he denied EC would lose the age statements. Saying these were just base less rumors. 

 

Fool me once......

It's possible that at the time they legitimately had no plans to. Then as demand continued to increase beyond their projections they were forced to reconsider. There's a choice to be made: go on allocation to keep the product as is, or, remove the age statement and keep it available. Given that it's their primary core brand after Evan Williams, they went with the latter.

[Wedelstaedt]

While it is "possible" HH had to change their plans, I find it implausible, plans would be changed within 1 year.  Because, a company that makes business decisions in terms of years, even decades, will not change course in approximately 8 months. This goes completely against the aged spirits business model. 

 

But, I guess anything is possible........if you want to believe it enough. 

[flahute]

36 minutes ago, Wedelstaedt said:

While it is "possible" HH had to change their plans, I find it implausible, plans would be changed within 1 year.  Because, a company that makes business decisions in terms of years, even decades, will not change course in approximately 8 months. This goes completely against the aged spirits business model. 

 

But, I guess anything is possible........if you want to believe it enough. 

Fair point. But......that kind of decision making you are talking about pertains to how much to distill, how to allocate current stock, how much warehouse capacity to bring online, etc. 

It tries to predict demand and the drain on current stock, but those predictions are always wrong. 

[smokinjoe]

2 hours ago, Wedelstaedt said:

While it is "possible" HH had to change their plans, I find it implausible, plans would be changed within 1 year.  Because, a company that makes business decisions in terms of years, even decades, will not change course in approximately 8 months. This goes completely against the aged spirits business model. 

 

But, I guess anything is possible........if you want to believe it enough. 

Time to put your big boy pants on and realize that sometimes shit just happens, and you move past it.

 

I have dealt personally with Larry Kass on a number of occasions.    He has always been open, candid, and straightforward.  Larry is a great friend of SB.COM, and was personally responsible for the fabulous SB.COM HHSS barrel selects, as well as offering his own and Heaven Hill's assistance to SB.COM functions.  Larry and Heaven Hill are as good as it gets in Bourbon. 

[Paddy]

^^^Well if you're going to play the conspiracy theory angle, I'd think that their biggest buyers tasting teams would get ALL the honey barrels.

 

To point...  Liquor Barn buys a lot of whiskey.  Their team often chooses from up to 25 barrels per selection.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Paddy
Clarification of my point.

[Wedelstaedt]

Joe, 

 

I wear big boy pants every day. 

We who wear big boy pants don't resort to name calling to make points. Also we don't name drop. 

I observe people's words & actions, make decisions accordingly. Mr Kass, may be your buddy, I only can judge  him by his public words as an representative of HH. Maybe, your thoughts are clouded by the favors he has offered you. 

 

Paddy,

 

I am not into conspiracy theories.. I take words & actions at face value. 

 

[Paddy]

3 hours ago, Wedelstaedt said:

While it is "possible" HH had to change their plans, I find it implausible, plans would be changed within 1 year.  Because, a company that makes business decisions in terms of years, even decades, will not change course in approximately 8 months. This goes completely against the aged spirits business model. 

 

But, I guess anything is possible........if you want to believe it enough. 

 

7 minutes ago, Wedelstaedt said:

Paddy,

 

I am not into conspiracy theories.. I take words & actions at face value. 

 

Well, at face value, I'd find it very plausible to see a course change within days.  Remember the MM proof change fiasco?

 

The bottom line is that the industry has been forced to react in ways not anticipated.  I'm just thankful that they have made great efforts to keep the ship's afloat (and of course bourbon on board)!

 

Cheers, and carry on! 

[Kepler]

3 hours ago, smokinjoe said:

I have dealt personally with Larry Kass on a number of occasions.    He has always been open, candid, and straightforward.  

.....

Larry and Heaven Hill are as good as it gets in Bourbon. 

May be, but he got caught in a lie...?

[smokinjoe]

9 hours ago, Wedelstaedt said:

Joe, 

 

I wear big boy pants every day. 

We who wear big boy pants don't resort to name calling to make points. Also we don't name drop. 

I observe people's words & actions, make decisions accordingly. Mr Kass, may be your buddy, I only can judge  him by his public words as an representative of HH. Maybe, your thoughts are clouded by the favors he has offered you. 

 

Paddy,

 

I am not into conspiracy theories.. I take words & actions at face value. 

 

 

The most we can say is that he was wrong.  We don't know what he knew, nor what HH knew, when he made any comments about EC12's future.  Whatever it may have been, it's business.  And, business is business.  Sometimes things get off the rails, and you have to change course.  You handle them the best way you can, play the hand you're dealt, and move on.  Some can handle the outcome.  Others cannot.  

 

Larry is not my "buddy", nor has he offered me any "favors".  But, I have dealt with Larry (and HH), and they have been great to work with and have done what they said they were going to do, and more.  At times, even acting beyond their own best interests.  

I understand it's a personal decision on why and where one bases trust.  If your principals are such that the EC12 situation leads you to where you are, no sweat.  I just differ, and have offered my reasons that are based on my business dealings with him.  

[smokinjoe]

6 hours ago, Kepler said:

May be, but he got caught in a lie...?

Your question mark says it all, doesn't it?  

[Kepler]

14 hours ago, smokinjoe said:

Your question mark says it all, doesn't it?  

Does it?  Let me remove the question mark then. The dude told a fib.  And the company lost face.  then they lost some customers.  deal with it.

[smokinjoe]

29 minutes ago, Kepler said:

Does it?  Let me remove the question mark then. The dude told a fib.  And the company lost face.  then they lost some customers.  deal with it.

Please see this from my post above:

 

14 hours ago, smokinjoe said:

The most we can say is that he was wrong.  We don't know what he knew, nor what HH knew, when he made any comments about EC12's future.  

 

Unless you know something we don't know, I think it presumptuous to say he "fibbed".  I'll agree however, that the situation was not handled well, for sure.  We know from comments on these boards that some were angered by it, and surely some may turn away from the brand.  What that impact is for the brand remains to be seen, I suppose.  Recent data points seem to indicate some favorable opinions of the new release, though.  

[T Comp]

56 minutes ago, Kepler said:

Does it?  Let me remove the question mark then. The dude told a fib.  And the company lost face.  then they lost some customers.  deal with it.

 

Lost face and lost customers? Among maybe a few hundred. I bet 1% of bourbon buyers even know HH makes Elijah Craig or no longer has an age statement. Less than that on Larry Kass. And I won't name names and be accused of having buddies , but the men I've known who make bourbon, are awfully passionate about it too. 

[GaryT]

6 hours ago, T Comp said:

 

Lost face and lost customers? Among maybe a few hundred. I bet 1% of bourbon buyers even know HH makes Elijah Craig or no longer has an age statement. Less than that on Larry Kass. And I won't name names and be accused of having buddies , but the men I've known who make bourbon, are awfully passionate about it too. 

 

But you do KNOW people who MAKE bourbon . . . (someone come back and insert appropriate conspiracy theory here!)

 

I'm with Joe on this one, and I've never met anyone at HH other than the folks at the visitor center.  The facts are that they changed course from what he said.  Whether or not he knew that at the time, who is to say.  Bernie Lubbers got "caught" in the same way.

 

As a business person, ask yourself what makes more sense - to have your public spokesman/brand ambassador/whiskey professor intentionally mislead the public in the hopes it won't hurt immediately/short term sales of a few months?  Or maybe those guys aren't in the room when decisions about allocation vs age statement changes are made, and when they made those statements, they absolutely believed them to be true.  The value of a few months of misconception vs damage to their credibility wouldn't even be a close call to me.  It seems irrational to me that they would make such a short term decision at the cost of long term challenges to their integrity.

 

And while the business cycle is a long one with bourbon, sales can pick up in a much shorter cycle.  How many of us thought the "bourbon bubble" would have burst by now?  And aren't all of the major distilleries playing that same guessing game?  Maybe they thought it would have at least tapered off, instead of continuing to rise (and after just a couple of decades ago being caught with excessive stocks - I'd be a little gun-shy about just turning up the production knob to full throttle too quickly).  

[Canarse]

Good Lord.  What a mess this is over the process of dropping an age statement?  I don't know any of you or the bourbon producers, but this can be a judgmental bunch.  Things happen.  Maybe Mr. Kass was against dropping the age statement and would rather have gone on allocation the entire time.  Sometimes you lose those battles corporately and then you have to suck it up, be a team player, and then toe the company line.  This is hardly enough to call him a liar.  I could judge a few of you based upon the content and tenor of your posts, but try to remember, "judge not lest ye be judged."  

[Wedelstaedt]

Circle the wagons......:-)

[Wedelstaedt]

5 minutes ago, Canarse said:

Good Lord.  What a mess this is over the process of dropping an age statement?  I don't know any of you or the bourbon producers, but this can be a judgmental bunch.  Things happen.  Maybe Mr. Kass was against dropping the age statement and would rather have gone on allocation the entire time.  Sometimes you lose those battles corporately and then you have to suck it up, be a team player, and then toe the company line.  This is hardly enough to call him a liar.  I could judge a few of you based upon the content and tenor of your posts, but try to remember, "judge not lest ye be judged."  

 

Some of us still value honesty and integrity.

 

Like it or not Mr. Kass is the face of HH. When he speaks on behalf of HH, his job is to be a promoter & shield for his company. With this job he will catch the flack for his employer. 

 

It is naive to think he was completely unaware of HH plans 

[Louisiana]

This doesn't change my view with HH at all. People do make mistakes.  Larry Kass made a big mistake. At least everyone had plenty of time to stock EC12 if they really wanted it though. I still know where plenty is on the shelf if anyone wants to know just PM me.

 

What I don't like about this site sometimes is that there can be a double standard. Everyone needs to be considerate of each other's opinion on here. Whether you have 10 post or 10,000 post doesn't make you any different. Now can we all just drink some Good Bourbon and have some Good Conversation.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Louisiana

[ken_mays]

If they had admitted, yes, we're dropping the age statement in 6 months, do you think there would have been a run on the old bottles?   I would say that's a fair assumption.  If they wanted to softpedal the age statement loss in order to extend availability, I think it was the right decision in regards to availability.   People who were jaded enough to know what it meant were able to stock up beforehand without a full tilt, shelf-clearing panic ensuing.  I can't say I fault them.

[smokinjoe]

2 hours ago, Louisiana said:

This doesn't change my view with HH at all. People do make mistakes.  Larry Kass made a big mistake. At least everyone had plenty of time to stock EC12 if they really wanted it though. I still know where plenty is on the shelf if anyone wants to know just PM me.

 

What I don't like about this site sometimes is that there can be a double standard. Everyone needs to be considerate of each other's opinion on here. Whether you have 10 post or 10,000 post doesn't make you any different. Now can we all just drink some Good Bourbon and have some Good Conversation.

What are you talking about?  This is good conversation.  Opinions on a subject being keenly expressed and defended.  I see no double standard anywhere above, and certainly no inconsideration of others opinions.  Just spirited debate .  I tell ya, I'd much rather see more of these types of discussions.

[mosugoji64]

The people at HH have been nothing but top shelf in their dealings with the public and with their employees. I'm making that statement based on personal experience and on reports from people at the distillery. While I may not be happy about the loss of the age statement and the way it was handled, I'm confident HH saw this as the best solution. I've seen no evidence of malice or underhandedness on their part. They've been doing this for a VERY long time and have a great deal of expertise. The boom has hit everyone hard and has resulted in some less-than-favorable situations for all of the major producers. From what I've seen, they're doing whatever they can just to keep their heads above water. If they say that retaining the age statement wasn't sustainable, I'm inclined to believe them unless evidence crops up to the contrary.

[Paddy]

..............and we've yet to see any rolling blackouts of Elijah Craig.

 

Can't say that about every brand, can we?

[jeffrey r]

Aside from the focus on EC12, there has also been the dramatic decrease in the age of EWSB. But I don't judge HH for that evolution per se. They are transparent about it, and the age is right there on the bottle. Personally, I choose to rely on my 10 year old EWSB bottles in my bunker, rather than buying the new stuff. I think EWSB is just right around 10 years old.

But this boom has really hit HH hard--and they'll run their business the way they think it needs to be run. If bottling younger barrels as EWSB and EC is what they think they need to do, then they'll do it. We as consumers can make whatever choices we need to make for ourselves.