Does a bottle change after opening?

[wadewood]

Several other studies have been done and the results mostly show, keep it stored it at normal room temperature and in the dark and there is very little change.  My test was short term, modern era bourbon.  Specifically I hear folks say I opened XYZ bottle and did not care for it, but I tried it again a month later and it had totally changed and now I love it.  I think my test in this case pretty clearly indicates the whiskey has not changed; it's just your perception to it.

[DCFan]

I'm flying by the seat of my pants on this but air affects everything so I can't imagine liquor is any different.  Thanks and carry on. 

[flahute]

2 hours ago, DCFan said:

I'm flying by the seat of my pants on this but air affects everything so I can't imagine liquor is any different.  Thanks and carry on. 

It's not any different but the question is, can you detect it?

Probably not. 

[bourbon4all]

I'm a member of the air time changes things club.

[DCFan]

8 minutes ago, flahute said:

It's not any different but the question is, can you detect it?

Probably not. 

 

I have some bottles of liquor from my wedding reception which was over 32 years ago. I'll be damned if I can tell any difference. But if they were tested I'm sure they would test differently from something current.

[flahute]

1 hour ago, DCFan said:

 

I have some bottles of liquor from my wedding reception which was over 32 years ago. I'll be damned if I can tell any difference. But if they were tested I'm sure they would test differently from something current.

They would for a lot of different reasons. Distillation was a little different back then, the grains used then may have been a little different, the trees used in the cooperage were different, etc.

[wadewood]

Now that I have answered the short term aging question, time to test long term. Putting these OWA private barrel picks away until June 2018. 240 ml fill left in the 750 ml bottle. #drinkingforscience

[tanstaafl2]

On ‎6‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 9:12 AM, wadewood said:

The results. We had 9 participants. Test was pour of 3 samples - 2 samples from one bottle, 1 sample from the other test bottle. Tasters were asked if they could discern a difference in one of the samples. 
--2 tasted and said no difference. 
--6 tasted and indicated a difference, but the one they picked they tasted 2 of that same bottle
--1 tasted and indicated a difference and selected the odd sample.

 

Of the lone person who indicated a difference and got it correct did he say which he had a preference for? Was the duplicate sample always the same, either 2 of the "exposed" and one of the new (or vice versa)?

 

I like that it was a blind test. Selecting two identical pours as having a difference seems to say as much about how fickle the palate is as noted above than much about the impact of air exposure, which I was never a big believer in to begin with.

 

 

Edited June 20, 2017 by tanstaafl2

[Richnimrod]

I can't remember... were folx told there was one that was different and to try to pick it out?

...Or was this a truly 'blind' AND 'deaf' trial... or maybe I should say; "Double Blind"?

 

My question is because of the subconscious pressure to find a difference, if told there IS a difference.

[bourbon4all]

I've got just a couple questions if you would indulge me. Great topic/test by the way. Were the testers bourbon drinkers? (high proof for average people to taste anything but burn) Did you cover the glasses after pouring them? I would think if the test took very long at all the samples would get a substantial amount of air just sitting in the glass. Nit Picky questions I know but the whole topic got me thinking. 

[mosugoji64]

Great topic, Wade, and good to see you posting again! I, too, have noticed differences in bottles over time but didn't really attribute it to any particular reason. That said, I DO think that new pours seem to have a little extra-concentrated alcohol on the nose at least and have taken to letting the glass sit for a bit before drinking. It's not really air-time but letting some of the alcohol evaporate.

[wadewood]

Yes, all tasters were whiskey drinkers.  I did this with a group that has a regular whiskey get together.  Now within those 9 tasters, I would say 3 were very experienced, 3 moderate, and 3 newer.   And by the way it was not one of the very experienced tasters that identified it correctly.

 

Here was the setup.  I had 4 empty bottles, labeled 1 to 4.  At the event & out of the others sight, I transferred the bottle I had been drinking from into bottles 1 and 3.  I unsealed the full bottle and put equal amounts into bottles 2 and 4.  The tasters poured themselves 3 samples, which I let pick themselves.  No matter which 3 they selected, one of those would be different from the rest.  My goal was not to say if it improved and turned worse.  My goal was only to see if there was a discernible difference.  The tasters turned a score card indicating which 3 samples they selected, and circled the number they thought was different.

[Richnimrod]

So, there was some expectation (or understanding) in this test that one would be different?   Or, am I missing something... or reading my own assumption into it?

Edited June 20, 2017 by Richnimrod

[wadewood]

4 minutes ago, Richnimrod said:

So, there was some expectation (or understanding) in this test that one would be different?   Or, am I missing something... or reading my own assumption into it?

The later.  Going into test I thought there would be no difference.  I also tasted the samples and could tell no difference.  The results by the blind tasters showed to me they could not discern a difference.

[Harry in WashDC]

On 6/17/2017 at 5:45 PM, Bourbonmakesmepoop said:

Still not convinced, although not because of my palate. The reason is because #1: wine oxidizes so why wouldn't bourbon? albeit at a much slower pace.

#2: when I fall asleep with bourbon in my glass it sometimes gets foggy and growse overnight. If this happens, then why wouldn't it happen slower to a larger volume in a bottle (much slower due to less air exposure but still).

any explanations?

ASIDE - Joe - you can feng my shui anytime.

 

Depending on the bourbon, the residue in my glass the next day does, indeed, get cloudy overnight.  It happens more with unfiltered than heavily filtered and more with BP than 80 proof.  A few months ago, somebody posted a series of pictures of the overnight residue from various scotches that some anal retentive took pictures of (and oral compulsives like me drooled over until something else caught our attention).  And, I'm pretty sure I recall a thread from a couple years ago talking about cloudy bottles, etc.  Some chemistry member explained about esters, congeners, long organic chains, etc., but I left to attend to my neglected glass so don't remember which thread it was.

 

OTOH, I have learned over time that some bourbons sipped neat - I'm thinking of OGD 114 which I'd never had (from 1970 to 2012 or thereabouts) until you all started discussing it here on SB - aren't full flavored for me out of a new bottle unless I pour and let it sit for five or so minutes.  GTS is about the only exception to this I can think of.

 

Wade, I really appreciate your tenacity in devoting an incredible amount of time to this test, your self control in not just grabbing one or the other and swigging from time to time (unless you had OTHER stuff to swig), and reporting the results.  In the past (although it has been 20+ years since my brother and I split and consumed the last of my Dad's whiskies we inherited), I attributed the difference in taste between partially opened (REALLY!) old bottles and just opened new bottles more to the shift over time in barrels, grains, water, hardware (pipes, stills, plates, etc.) than I did to air.  Once the bourbon is in the glass, though, air does some magic.

 

I could be wrong, now, but I don't think so.

[bourbon4all]

7 minutes ago, Harry in WashDC said:

ASIDE - Joe - you can feng my shui anytime.

 

Depending on the bourbon, the residue in my glass the next day does, indeed, get cloudy overnight.  It happens more with unfiltered than heavily filtered and more with BP than 80 proof.  A few months ago, somebody posted a series of pictures of the overnight residue from various scotches that some anal retentive took pictures of (and oral compulsives like me drooled over until something else caught our attention).  And, I'm pretty sure I recall a thread from a couple years ago talking about cloudy bottles, etc.  Some chemistry member explained about esters, congeners, long organic chains, etc., but I left to attend to my neglected glass so don't remember which thread it was.

 

OTOH, I have learned over time that some bourbons sipped neat - I'm thinking of OGD 114 which I'd never had (from 1970 to 2012 or thereabouts) until you all started discussing it here on SB - aren't full flavored for me out of a new bottle unless I pour and let it sit for five or so minutes.  GTS is about the only exception to this I can think of.

 

Wade, I really appreciate your tenacity in devoting an incredible amount of time to this test, your self control in not just grabbing one or the other and swigging from time to time (unless you had OTHER stuff to swig), and reporting the results.  In the past (although it has been 20+ years since my brother and I split and consumed the last of my Dad's whiskies we inherited), I attributed the difference in taste between partially opened (REALLY!) old bottles and just opened new bottles more to the shift over time in barrels, grains, water, hardware (pipes, stills, plates, etc.) than I did to air.  Once the bourbon is in the glass, though, air does some magic.

 

I could be wrong, now, but I don't think so.

I like it

[smokinjoe]

1 hour ago, Harry in WashDC said:

ASIDE - Joe - you can feng my shui anytime.

 

I have consulted Grandmaster Po regarding your request, and he has advised that you are un-Feng shuiable...He was visibly shaken as he stammered in a mix of broken English and ancient Mandarin, but it seems that his attempt to Feng Shui you shattered the Ming Dynasty era Luo Pan that was given to him by his 114 year old GREAT Grandmaster PO-PO.  Between his wailing and banging his shaven head on the large brass gong, I was able to decipher that there was some confusion with (as he said), "What the fuck is "behind the door", "trash can", and, "trunk"...????!!?!?!"  

[Harry in WashDC]

17 minutes ago, smokinjoe said:

 

I have consulted Grandmaster Po regarding your request, and he has advised that you are un-Feng shuiable...He was visibly shaken as he stammered in a mix of broken English and ancient Mandarin, but it seems that his attempt to Feng Shui you shattered the Ming Dynasty era Luo Pan that was given to him by his 114 year old GREAT Grandmaster PO-PO.  Between his wailing and banging his shaven head on the large brass gong, I was able to decipher that there was some confusion with (as he said), "What the fuck is "behind the door", "trash can", and, "trunk"...????!!?!?!"  

LOL.  Grandmaster Po sure knows his shui.  As long as I face the cat litter box, the universe looks like it's in harmony to me.

 

ON THREAD - The past few hours, I, too, have noticed my bottles change after opening - the level goes down whenever I tip it over.

[fishnbowljoe]

"Snatch this Glencairn from my hand Grasshopper."  

 

Cheers! Joe

[flahute]

1 hour ago, smokinjoe said:

 

I have consulted Grandmaster Po regarding your request, and he has advised that you are un-Feng shuiable...He was visibly shaken as he stammered in a mix of broken English and ancient Mandarin, but it seems that his attempt to Feng Shui you shattered the Ming Dynasty era Luo Pan that was given to him by his 114 year old GREAT Grandmaster PO-PO.  Between his wailing and banging his shaven head on the large brass gong, I was able to decipher that there was some confusion with (as he said), "What the fuck is "behind the door", "trash can", and, "trunk"...????!!?!?!"  

This in the running for post of the year.

[musekatcher]

14 hours ago, wadewood said:

Now that I have answered the short term aging question, time to test long term. Putting these OWA private barrel picks away until June 2018. 240 ml fill left in the 750 ml bottle. #drinkingforscience

 

 

You can accelerate your "long term" test, by simply leaving a dram sit over night, and compare it the next night with a fresh pour.  With most quality bourbons you'll notice a big difference in 1) appearance, 2) nose, 3) taste.  Most palettes will find the overnite less desirable. 

[wadewood]

7 hours ago, musekatcher said:

 

You can accelerate your "long term" test, by simply leaving a dram sit over night, and compare it the next night with a fresh pour.  With most quality bourbons you'll notice a big difference in 1) appearance, 2) nose, 3) taste.  Most palettes will find the overnite less desirable. 

 

I don't think sitting overnight in a glass is at all comparable to test I'm performing.  Just like there is no substitute for time in the barrel on bourbon.

Edited June 21, 2017 by wadewood

[smokinjoe]

11 minutes ago, wadewood said:

 

I don't think sitting overnight in a glass is at all comparable to test I'm performing.  Just like there is no substitute for time in the barrel on bourbon.

Exactly.  

[musekatcher]

On 6/21/2017 at 9:09 AM, wadewood said:

 

I don't think sitting overnight in a glass is at all comparable to test I'm performing.  Just like there is no substitute for time in the barrel on bourbon.

 

I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish?  Change in an unopened bottle with time, change in an opened bottle with time, change with exposure to O2 with time, or change without exposure to O2 with time?  To me, the only difference in opening a bottle, is exposure to air and O2?   If you draw the box, you have four corners for the extremes.  "Corners" bracket the two variables:

 

Unopened bottle, days: no O2, short time

Opened bottle, months: low/no O2, long time

Dram in a glass, days : max O2, short time

Dram in a glass, months :max O2, long time

 

If you look at corner #3 of max O2 exposure, for a short time such as overnight or two, and see a change, then you have no need to look at the #4 corner, the longer time, because it will just show you more change than #3.  You seem to be focused on corner #2, and I'm suggesting corner #3 is the quickest way to identify what happens with corner #2.   If not, go to corner #4, leave a dram out for a month if you dare - but don't let the kids or wife see the results

 

In the end, nobody leaves a dram sitting, so dram-sized storage issues aren't important.  We do however open bottles, and some will consume them quicker (moi) assuming they are perishable and have a shelf life after opening, while others will savor an opened bottle for years.  The question you and others are considering is the shelf life.  IMO #3 will definitely demonstrate that yes, there is a shelf life.  #2 is an attempt to define what that shelf life is: days, weeks, or years.  #4 will hurt your eyes and nose

 

 

Edited June 24, 2017 by musekatcher

[MTNBourbon]

Thanks for the test. I would say, to me, no difference.