Does a bottle change after opening?

[flahute]

7 hours ago, musekatcher said:

 

I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish? 

Can't speak for Wade but I believe he is testing the theory of "air time" as it is frequently discussed on these pages.

We see it often - "I cracked the seal on such and such bottle and didn't really like but after some air time, it really opened up".

 

Is that a real thing? Or is it us that change? Some of us believe it's the latter.

[musekatcher]

18 minutes ago, flahute said:

Can't speak for Wade but I believe he is testing the theory of "air time" as it is frequently discussed on these pages.

We see it often - "I cracked the seal on such and such bottle and didn't really like but after some air time, it really opened up".

 

Is that a real thing? Or is it us that change? Some of us believe it's the latter.

 

I got it - just offering some suggestions to consider, to make the test results more conclusive. A dram in a glass left for a few days is cheap, easy, quick data for anyone that wants to substantiate.  Or, don't and enjoy speculating

[smokinjoe]

20 minutes ago, musekatcher said:

 

I got it - just offering some suggestions to consider, to make the test results more conclusive. A dram in a glass left for a few days is cheap, easy, quick data for anyone that wants to substantiate.  Or, don't and enjoy speculating

I think the data obtained from the "dram in the glass for a few days" test gets filed in the "No shit, Sherlock" category corner... 

[musekatcher]

27 minutes ago, smokinjoe said:

I think the data obtained from the "dram in the glass for a few days" test gets filed in the "No shit, Sherlock" category corner... 

 

Well I think so, but some aren't convinced there is a relationship with an opened half-or-less filled bottle?  I've shared before, but I've got a lake house, and bourbon can sit untouched for months at a time.  I'm positive whiskey changes, and it changes faster as the level drops.  The other thing that is more debatable, is does it improve or "breathe" like wine?  I've drawn a conclusion on that too, but will concede its a preference, not a physicality. 

[smokinjoe]

2 hours ago, musekatcher said:

 

...but some aren't convinced there is a relationship with an opened half-or-less filled bottle?  

I'd be among those "some".  As Wade tested, my opinion is there is no discernible change/difference.

[icarus625]

The beautiful thing about Bourbon is one is never wrong. So, if you notice an improvement from your open bottle than it's win win. There are so many variables that come into play I would be a horrible judge to say yes or no to the question if an open bottle gets better with time...I'd like to think so because it has been my perception many times especially with a ORVW 10yr I pour from occasionally. But be it a change in ones palate or oxidation, the important thing is we are all drinking Bourbon and finding a way to enjoy it. Cheers to us!

[wadewood]

21 hours ago, flahute said:

Can't speak for Wade but I believe he is testing the theory of "air time" as it is frequently discussed on these pages.

We see it often - "I cracked the seal on such and such bottle and didn't really like but after some air time, it really opened up".

 

Is that a real thing? Or is it us that change? Some of us believe it's the latter.

Actually you could just quote me because that is pretty much exactly what I posted in this thread back on June 19.

[flahute]

^^^^Even better.

Indeed you did.

[Don Birnam]

Bear with me, I don't feel like quoting a vast multitude of posts.

 

Musekatcher, your 'corners' are the most flawed concept I have ever seen. How can you include an unopened bottle into the test? And a portion left in a glass..for days? Let alone months.

Silliness.

 

As far as 'cracking' open a fresh bottle, depends on the amount withdrawn and the time elapsed until the next pour.

 

Now some science.

Does bourbon change? Yes.

How much and in what way, depends on time, amount, and if a change is pleasant or funky to the taster.

 

It is not the bulk of the bourbon that is changing, alcohol and water are not affected by exposure to air, other than evaporation that is.

It is the extractives that change, wood compounds, esters from the yeast, etc. A pleasant (for most) change is the rounding off of the tannin bitterness. Or perhaps an ester becoming fruity or floral instead of chemical-ish.

On the other hand, wood extractives can become too wood-like with a long oxidation, giving a flavor of cheap toothpicks or licking old lumber. And esters can get 'funkified' giving off a, well funk stink.

 

Now a while back someone mentioned wine, wine changes a lot in a short time and goes 'off' with long exposure because wine is more-or-less 'alive', it is merely fruit juice and yeast. Just like fresh fruit turns brown on exposure to the air, your wine is doing the same thing, it is changing fairly rapidly. No differently than a sliced fruit tastes slightly different than a bite off the...well...fruit. It is this 'oxygenation' that causes it. And on the same token, fruit exposed to air for a long time goes bad and stinks. Spirit is cooked, it is more or less sterile so these things don't happen, the yeast cells are left in the spent mash, leaving only alcohol and esters to condense as spirit. No one has ever said 'My vodka has gone off'.

 

Now on to the main topic.

If you were to take a 30ml pour once per week, any change in the bourbon wouldn't be detectable, barring any change in palate due to food, mood, health, etc.. The time frame is too short, and the amount of oxygen reacting with the bourbon too small.

When you pour out the spirit, the 'atmosphere' in the bottle changes by the same amount of liquid removed. So in this case, 30ml of bourbon out, 30ml of air in.

If you were to pour out the vast majority (as it appears Wadewood has done in his second experiment) from a fresh bottle,  the 'atmosphere' inside the bottle changes by that amount and the remaining, smaller volume, liquid will react  with the larger volume of air for a more pronounced change.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Don Birnam

[Don Birnam]

The same could be accomplished by pouring into a clean small bottle some bourbon until it is very full, decanting into another bottle the majority of the bourbon to enjoy and recapping the original bottle with a small amount left in it. Set aside for the determined period and taste them side by side when the time period is elapsed. The small bottle will have no air (oxygen) to react with, the original one will react the small amount of bourbon with the large portion of air and now with out spoiling any bourbon, you can taste any differences if they exist.

 

 

[ModestGlutton]

Some to most opened bottles do change after time. I have found in my in my non-scientific experiments (though still prob eons more scientific than most) I have found that the more higher shelf or small producers of high quality spirit, do tend to change more then others over time. For example my 4 roses private selection was unappealing at first but after some weeks it really came to something I can see why people like it but has stabilized and hasn't changed since. The outlier that after opening changed so quickly and so much was the Willett Pot Still Reserve, every time I opened it, the spirit gave me something different every time. When it tasted like cherry/robitussin I let it sit for a week and BAM, it transitioned to caramely/toffee wood. Bourye hasn't changed at all and that has been opened since March (I had a glass last night). I just aquired a bottle of JP Trodden Five Route Star that has such a scotch like quality after it's been opened and sits for a while. The more I drink bourbon the more I think I'm a scotch guy

[musekatcher]

On 6/27/2017 at 9:09 AM, Don Birnam said:

 

 

Musekatcher, your 'corners' are the most flawed concept I have ever seen. How can you include an unopened bottle into the test? And a portion left in a glass..for days? Let alone months.

Silliness.

 

Yea thanks, I live to spend my time analyzing things to "silliness"!  Perhaps you don't understand it's a mental exercise to allow drawing conclusions without having to actually demonstrate the results?  Are you familiar with "bracketing" the extremes?  Familiar with "corners"?  How can you *not* include an unopened bottle?  That is the only control available.  No need to respond, I already know what it will contain, lol.   Cheers to ya -

[Harry in WashDC]

I'm still grappling with that declaratory statement, "[Y]our 'corners' are the most flawed concept I have ever seen."  I guess he's not been reading my posts.  Even I (aka, "moi") am embarrassed sometimes by what I've written - and those are just MY concepts.  If I broaden it to concepts of others, my parents' assertion that the moon is made of green cheese comes to mind.  Now, THAT is a concept.  But, you may not have heard that from them.

 

Also, FWIW, I have, indeed, found a partially full/partially empty bourbon glass in the AM on the way to the bathroom to brush the rug on (off?) my tongue and swallowed it (the overnight bourbon, not the rug) on the way, figuring a bit more lint won't hurt the rug.  Often, I find those tastes less than satisfactory with a somewhat sticky mouthfeel and less alcohol kick than I'd like.  A little mouthwash swallowed early on in the process does wonders, though.

 

Uh, what were we blogging about?  Oh, yeah, Wade's test.  Wade, I look forward to the results.  As I posted a page or so ago, I notice more difference between a quick sip of a neat high proof right "now" and a sip after a few minutes of sitting than I do from a 3/4 full but corked bottle and that same bottle when it reaches, say, 1/2 full.  But then, I sometimes can't remember what I ate for dinner anytime last month let alone what it tasted like.  Ergo, I like reading about tests like yours.

 

Happy early 4th, you all.  Nats fireworks in St.L. going off as I write this.

[mbroo5880i]

The guys at Breaking Bourbon performed a similar experiment.  You can read their conclusions on their website.

 

http://www.breakingbourbon.com/bourbon-storage-experiment.html

 

I will say that I do believe bourbon does change due to oxidation over time.  I think it is more than just variability in my palate but I also believe that once a bottle "opens up" little to no change occurs.  If you look at the references provided in the breaking bourbon experiment, it appears some of the significant writers in the bourbon industry (e.g., Chuck Cowdery and Michael Veatch) subscribe to some level of change.  I am not able to argue against their experience or access to distillers who helped shape their perspective.  However, I can provide anecdotal experience where the first pour of a bottle was not enjoyable but after letting it sit for a few weeks, I found all subsequent pours enjoyable.  Assuming 2 ounce pours, it is unlikely my palate was exactly aligned for 12 consecutive pours after being "off" for the initial pour.  Even it this were to occur, it is unlikely this scenario would repeat itself multiple times over the years.

 

This said, I know there are times that my palate negatively impacts my enjoyment of a pour.  

[Don Birnam]

On 7/2/2017 at 1:45 AM, musekatcher said:

 

Yea thanks, I live to spend my time analyzing things to "silliness"!  Perhaps you don't understand it's a mental exercise to allow drawing conclusions without having to actually demonstrate the results?  Are you familiar with "bracketing" the extremes?  Familiar with "corners"?  How can you *not* include an unopened bottle?  That is the only control available.  No need to respond, I already know what it will contain, lol.   Cheers to ya -

 

So, in your mind this;

 

Unopened bottle, days: no O2, short time

Opened bottle, months: low/no O2, long time

Dram in a glass, days : max O2, short time

Dram in a glass, months :max O2, long time

 

isn't silly?

 

Leaving bourbon in a glass, open to the atmosphere, for days, or months, as some sort of determination of what happens in a closed bottle.

First, of course there will be a change, it's called evaporation. The alcohol will evaporate, the liquid in the glass will become lower and lower in proof, until eventually the water also evaporates, leaving a waxy coating.

That isn't oxidation, which is what this experiment pertains to.

 

Second, your inclusion of an unopened bottle while not silly, can't be included, the unopened bottle is a Schrödinger cat. The unopened bottle can be in the center of your box or outside of it, but it can't be included until it is opened.

 

Thirdly, I will assume you are using dram in the loosest of definitions. i.e. a small amount. Not the technical, across the pond ordering a dram of whiskey and receiving a 25ml measure, and certainly not the most technical 1/8th fluid ounce. Because even an ounce would completely evaporate in a day or two, little difficult to determine a change that way.

 

Even the Breaking Bourbon experiment has flaws.

A true test would be to purchase three fifths of a selected bourbon from the same lot. Fill one four ounce bottle full. one eight ounce bottle with six ounces, one eight ounce bottle with four ounces and one sixteen ounce bottle with four ounces. This give you a full bottle (no air), a 3/4th full bottle reacting with a 1/4 volume of air, a half full bottle reacting with an equal measure of air and a 1/4 full bottle reacting with 3 measures of air. Date these bottles, set aside in your liquor storage area. In six months do it all again with a second of the three original fifths. In another six months pull them all from storage along with the third original fifth. Have a taste party. You can now determine the changes from different fill levels reacted for 12 months, six months, freshly opened.

 

 

Edited July 7, 2017 by Don Birnam

[musekatcher]

[musekatcher]

Vintage unopened bourbon:

 

 

[musekatcher]

And more recent unopened J@ck:

 

 

[Don Birnam]

7 hours ago, musekatcher said:

 

Jim,

I understand the box, corners, brackets aspect. My issue is with the open glass, change that to 3/4ml in a fifth bottle (1000:1 ratio) and we are golden.

As I explained, you are mixing whiskey capable of mass evaporation, with whiskey that experienced minimal, over many years, evaporation. Doing that, any changes that occur can't be compared.

[Don Birnam]

7 hours ago, musekatcher said:

Vintage unopened bourbon:

 

 

 

I am not sure what is going on with this post, but let me take a guess.

You are showing different levels of evaporation in closed, sealed bottles.

The Dougherty's has a damaged zinc cap and most likely a cork disc 'seal'. You can see the dented cap so the seal is compromised and the bottle can 'breathe' freely.

The Old Forester has a phenolic cap and either a cork or cardboard seal, both tend to dry out and screw caps loosen.

The Sam Thompson, has a cork 'plug' and no seal, let's assume it hasn't had a nip or two removed, but that cork is in bad shape.

The AMS has an aluminum cap with most likely a cork disc, and appears to be darned close to it's original fill level.

[Don Birnam]

8 hours ago, musekatcher said:

And more recent unopened J@ck:

 

 

 

More recent? I suppose, though they are 50+ years old.

 

Whiskey bottles 'breathe' and when they do they lose alcohol and that translates to a loss of volume.

The one on the left may have a bad seated screw cap or loose cork (I don't know what Jack Daniels used on these pint bottles.

Whiskey stoppers leak in order: corked, screw caps with discs, plastic screw caps with integral lip seal (assuming screw capped stoppers are screwed down firmly).

 

Why they breathe is simple, they contain alcohol.

Just like the red liquid in an analog thermometer (yep, that's red booze, and they are called spirit thermometers) the alcohol in a whiskey bottle is expanding and contracting with temperature differences.

Take a full long necked whiskey bottle put it in the refrigerator for a few hours, take it out, mark the fill level on the neck, let it warm and.....free whiskey!! Not really, but you'll get the point.

This expansion causes a small pressure increase in the bottle which pushes some of the alcohol vapor out past the stopper, the contraction causes a tiny vacuum, sucking in air.

Over a long period, the liquid volume drops. Add a bad stopper/cap and even more so.

Edited July 8, 2017 by Don Birnam
added the word plastic

[Vosgar]

Jim, if those are your bottles, your self control in not opening any of them is stronger than mine would ever be. Especially the Special Old Reserve. 15 yr old pre-prohibition whiskey, wow!

[musekatcher]

38 minutes ago, Vosgar said:

Jim, if those are your bottles, ...

 

No sir, google friendly images...

[Gillman]

It has to change because we know whiskey can oxidize in the bottle. So if it does that, there are changes leading up to the typical oxidation tastes (dirty metallic taste).

 

The only question is, how much will it change. 

 

Gary

Edited September 18, 2017 by Gillman

[CardsandBourbon]

I would posit that the more evaporation that occurs the greater the change in taste.  The more air in the bottle the more oxidation.  JMO and I could be totally wrong.