Sourced

[EarthQuake]

Let's look at this "people don't like MGP" argument from another angle to get some perspective.

 

Let's say a new company is formed. Jimmy's Private Select Rye Whiskey comes to market. Jimmy bottles 4 year old Buffalo Trace high corn rye mash bill (the mash bill that goes into Baby Saz, Sazerac 18 and THH). They put it on the market as a premium product bottled at 90 proof for $80.

 

If they are transparent about the source of the whiskey, the reaction here would be "that's just younger baby saz, PASS!". Now, does this mean people don't like Buffalo Trace rye all of a sudden? Of course not.

 

Now, the reason this sentiment is very common with MGP is because sourcing is their primary business model. So, this situation happens a lot with MGP and being the whiskey nerds that we are - we seek out as much information as we can which makes these sort of comparisons inevitable.

Edited September 24, 2017 by EarthQuake

[DCFan]

8 minutes ago, flahute said:

Well then I have to question the veracity of your story.

That’s your prerogative but since there’s no scientific evidence to prove either one of us is right or wrong I’ll leave it here. And if you were here we could crack open this bottle of Rhetoric sitting on my bar. 

[kevinbrink]

As someone that likes MGP Whiskey, even with the recent releases of MGP Bottled products (Metze's Select and George Remus) I still find myself supporting the NDP's that I like, more than anything because the stuff MGP put out isn't any better of a value than SAOS, High West is in another category since they are blending with Barton for most of the products I buy from them.

[jvd99]

2 hours ago, FasterHorses said:

Dam.. i had a question about the thoughts of the board on sourced whiskey.

I respect what Laws distillery is doing.. creating their own product from local grains and doing all of the hard work.. way more than i respect what high west does. I never once said i dont like how their product tastes, i just felt differently about them. I guess no one else feels this way. Again.. damn.

You clearly struck a nerve with your query and it's elicited some fun and nuanced arguments.  

[DCFan]

3 minutes ago, jvd99 said:

You clearly struck a nerve with your query and it's elicited some fun and nuanced arguments.  

In all my time on this board I have never seen so much love for MGP. I’m touched, I really am. 

[jvd99]

2 minutes ago, DCFan said:

In all my time on this board I have never seen so much love for MGP. I’m touched, I really am. 

Can we go so far to say a second cult is forming?

[lcpfratn]

Dam.. i had a question about the thoughts of the board on sourced whiskey.
I respect what Laws distillery is doing.. creating their own product from local grains and doing all of the hard work.. way more than i respect what high west does. I never once said i dont like how their product tastes, i just felt differently about them. I guess no one else feels this way. Again.. damn.

I get what you're saying and have similar sentiments. My biggest beef with some of the NDPs and sourced craft stuff is the ridiculously high prices that they ask for the sourced products. I still occasionally buy some of it when I read or hear about a really great batch or single barrel, but I've concluded that there is a lot of great bourbon put out by the actual distillers. The distillers products are as good or better than most of the pricey NDP and craft bourbon, and most of it is much cheaper. I will support craft distillers like LAWS up to a point, but if their prices don't come down over time, I probably won't be a continuing buyer unless the product really justifies the price.


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[DCFan]

14 minutes ago, jvd99 said:

Can we go so far to say a second cult is forming?

 let’s apply the hoarding test: who here hoards this? I’ve seen some photos with some SAOS stashed but the others? 

[jvd99]

6 minutes ago, DCFan said:

 let’s apply the hoarding test: who here hoards this? I’ve seen some photos with some SAOS stashed but the others? 

Put me in the 'high esteem' camp for the NDPs

 

 

[DCFan]

9 minutes ago, jvd99 said:

Put me in the 'high esteem' camp for the NDPs

 

 

I didn’t know that SAOS made a rose wine? 

[bourbon4all]

10 minutes ago, jvd99 said:

Put me in the 'high esteem' camp for the NDPs

 

 

Put me in the sooo jealous camp. Oh and I love Mgp, Saos, High west among others

[Harry in WashDC]

3 hours ago, DCFan said:

To answer your Q, most here seem to thumb their noses at MGP products.  So it's not just you.  But taste is subjective.  Which is why I don't understand why many rotgut bourbons are enjoyed and discussed here.  Take Harry and his Old Crow. (we need a gagging and puking emoji here,  )

NoNoNo.  I had to bribe myself to finish that 750 of Old Crow.  I, literally, took a hit for the team with that one.  Now, some other bottom shelfers - specifically VOB BIB "6" and OGD BIB - are on my "Do Not Pass Up" list.

 

RE: the OP -- I just read the whole thread for the first time.   Let me say this about that.

 

It took me quite awhile to learn enough about the "business" side (including several readings of  Chuck's books, Mike Veach's book and some of his online articles,  and Fred's and Clay's and then some later books (see the book threads here for more comments on them)) before I could separate my "feelings" about shady advertising, woofing, and outright lies (HELLO, TEMPLETON!!) from the tastes inside the bottle.  Now, it doesn't bother me so much.  For example, when I want that MGP highest rye flavor, I know Bulliett rye is handy and to me fairly priced so I don't bother picking up one of the other half-dozen or so well-known brands that repackage it.  And, as has been stated, the blenders at HW and SA really know how to pick and mix IMO.  More recently, I came to appreciate Nancy Fraley's work at JosA Magnus.  In other words, I am not a value shopper, but I've also learned that I'm quite happy with several dozen brands - House and NDP - that I like; reasonable price is a nice side benefit.

[lcpfratn]

10 minutes ago, jvd99 said:

Put me in the 'high esteem' camp for the NDPs

 

 

I'd definitely say you hold at least three of them in high esteem!  I've never even seen any of those old Willet Estate offerings or that one from High West. I do have a few SAOS and High West bottles that I thought were reasonable values, and may buy them again, but I still generally prefer products made by actual distillers when similar quality and pricing is available from the distillers. 

[Harry in WashDC]

20 minutes ago, DCFan said:

 let’s apply the hoarding test: who here hoards this? I’ve seen some photos with some SAOS stashed but the others? 

I haven't horded any.  I do have two cask strengths, unopened, I bought online 3 or 4 years ago and a Contradiction and a 10 year and a couple of 7 years. But, I'm not hoarding.  I just haven't gotten around to opening them yet.

[dcbt]

42 minutes ago, lcpfratn said:

My biggest beef with some of the NDPs and sourced craft stuff is the ridiculously high prices that they ask for the sourced products.

Reminds me of something Wade posted on FB recently, something along the lines of (as I paraphrase), "When a company buys someone else's product and brands it as its own to sell it's called a private label and sells for cheaper than competitors.  In the bourbon world, this is an NDP and sells for higher prices but for some reason consumers are ok with that."

[Swamp55]

2 minutes ago, Harry in WashDC said:

I'm not hoarding.  I just haven't gotten around to opening them yet.

Harry, can I quote your brilliant description when explaining my growing bunker to my wife?  

[Harry in WashDC]

Just now, Swamp55 said:

Harry, can I quote your brilliant description when explaining my growing bunker to my wife?  

For sure.  We are all in this together.  And, if YOU have any helpful hints, let me know.  I am running out, and she's catching them earlier and earlier.

[jvd99]

1 minute ago, dcbt said:

Reminds me of something Wade posted on FB recently, something along the lines of (as I paraphrase), "When a company buys someone else's product and brands it as its own to sell it's called a private label and sells for cheaper than competitors.  In the bourbon world, this is an NDP and sells for higher prices but for some reason consumers are ok with that."

For example, at Binny's a 28 year Highland Park bottled by Cadenheads is like 60% cheaper than a 30 year old bottled by Highland Park and also significantly cheaper that their 25 year.   Not apples to apples age-wise, but close enough.  This true of pretty much all independent single malt bottlibgs in that an idependent bottling is almost always a better value

[flahute]

11 minutes ago, dcbt said:

Reminds me of something Wade posted on FB recently, something along the lines of (as I paraphrase), "When a company buys someone else's product and brands it as its own to sell it's called a private label and sells for cheaper than competitors.  In the bourbon world, this is an NDP and sells for higher prices but for some reason consumers are ok with that."

This is the simple crux of the issue for anyone willing to cut through all the noise.

[lcpfratn]

30 minutes ago, flahute said:

This is the simple crux of the issue for anyone willing to cut through all the noise.

Nailed it!

[BottledInBond]

Some good discussion here of a topic that seems to have been debated a few times over the last couple years. I'm in the camp that has no problems with the NDPs that I respect like High West, Smooth Ambler, Barrell, Willett. And let's not forget about the most notable NDB of them all, The Van Winkles. For anyone that wants to bash NDPs across the board I hope you turn down any PVW you might get access to this fall. The Van Winkles have a long tradition of sourcing whiskey, both their bourbon and the rye, and haven't distilled a drop of their own for decades. It seems that society as a whole is just fine with that NDP, but is a little hypocritical with other NDPs. I can't count the times I've seen somebody bash an NDP and then brag about the Pappy they just bought......

[DCFan]

1 hour ago, Harry in WashDC said:

NoNoNo.  I had to bribe myself to finish that 750 of Old Crow.  I, literally, took a hit for the team with that one.  Now, some other bottom shelfers - specifically VOB BIB "6" and OGD BIB - are on my "Do Not Pass Up" list.

After that 8th and 9th innings any of those bottom shelters were looking good.

[flahute]

52 minutes ago, BottledInBond said:

Some good discussion here of a topic that seems to have been debated a few times over the last couple years. I'm in the camp that has no problems with the NDPs that I respect like High West, Smooth Ambler, Barrell, Willett. And let's not forget about the most notable NDB of them all, The Van Winkles. For anyone that wants to bash NDPs across the board I hope you turn down any PVW you might get access to this fall. The Van Winkles have a long tradition of sourcing whiskey, both their bourbon and the rye, and haven't distilled a drop of their own for decades. It seems that society as a whole is just fine with that NDP, but is a little hypocritical with other NDPs. I can't count the times I've seen somebody bash an NDP and then brag about the Pappy they just bought......

I totally get the point you are making but it's a bit different with the Van Winkles. Everybody knows that BT distills this and BT proudly touts it on their website. 

[BottledInBond]

12 minutes ago, flahute said:

I totally get the point you are making but it's a bit different with the Van Winkles. Everybody knows that BT distills this and BT proudly touts it on their website. 

I understand that it isn't hard to figure out the arrangement for those that pay attention but the VW website and their bottles continue to say "Old Rip Van Wnkle Distillery" on them, and no such distillery exists. And they have historically bottled stuff from multiple sources including Bernheim bourbon along with Cream of KY and Medley ryes, and obviously Stitzell Weller and Buffalo Trace bourbons. They aren't a distillery so it would be nice if they would stop calling themselves ORVW Distillery, and they haven't been as transparent as some other NDPs as far as sources and blends. But everyone gives them a pass for whatever reason on the same things they criticize others for

[Paddy]

^^^^ I give them a pass because they're a consolidation of several distilleries.

 

It also doesn't hurt that I like drinking their products.