Sourced

[jvd99]

1 hour ago, flahute said:

I totally get the point you are making but it's a bit different with the Van Winkles. Everybody knows that BT distills this and BT proudly touts it on their website. 

Everyone here on SB may "know" that BT distills Pappy, but we didn't learn that by reading the label.  Quite to the contrary, their label contains what is arguably a very confusing statement: "bottled by the Old Rip Van Winkle Distillery."  Nowhere does the label say it's distilled at BT.  Someone with no bourbon knowledge could easily be misled that Pappy was distilled by the ORVW Distillery, not BT.  So I'm not sure Van Winkle products deserve blanket immunity from this discussion. 

 

Edit: didn't catch the previos post that pointed out the label issue -  oops

Edited September 24, 2017 by jvd99

[smokinjoe]

15 minutes ago, jvd99 said:

 So I'm not sure Van Winkle products deserve blanket immunity from this discussion. 

 

JVD just put an end to that ORVW distillery nonsense...

 

[flahute]

45 minutes ago, jvd99 said:

Everyone here on SB may "know" that BT distills Pappy, but we didn't learn that by reading the label.  Quite to the contrary, their label contains what is arguably a very confusing statement: "bottled by the Old Rip Van Winkle Distillery."  Nowhere does the label say it's distilled at BT.  Someone with no bourbon knowledge could easily be misled that Pappy was distilled by the ORVW Distillery, not BT.  So I'm not sure Van Winkle products deserve blanket immunity from this discussion. 

 

Edit: didn't catch the previos post that pointed out the label issue -  oops

I'm not defending the Van Winkle shenanigans, just saying that nobody out there is being fooled into purchasing their product because they believe in the fabled Old Rip Van Winkle distillery. My bottle of Elijah Craig says it's distilled at the Elijah Craig Distillery Co. in Bardstown. No such place exists and yet we aren't complaining about Heaven Hill.

A person with no bourbon knowledge is not going to be buying a Van Winkle bourbon. The person who has no knowledge won't be able to find it so they will google the name and see the Buffalo Trace website.

If we're going to complain about the Old Rip Van Winkle Distillery name on the label then we need to complain about a lot of labels being produced by our favorite distilleries.

[BottledInBond]

1 hour ago, flahute said:

I'm not defending the Van Winkle shenanigans, just saying that nobody out there is being fooled into purchasing their product because they believe in the fabled Old Rip Van Winkle distillery. My bottle of Elijah Craig says it's distilled at the Elijah Craig Distillery Co. in Bardstown. No such place exists and yet we aren't complaining about Heaven Hill.

A person with no bourbon knowledge is not going to be buying a Van Winkle bourbon. The person who has no knowledge won't be able to find it so they will google the name and see the Buffalo Trace website.

If we're going to complain about the Old Rip Van Winkle Distillery name on the label then we need to complain about a lot of labels being produced by our favorite distilleries.

Fair point on the other companies that list fictitious names of distilleries. Let's just all agree that no Van Winkle distills anything, and hasn't really distilled anything since the early 70's. That makes them some variety of NDP. It's not like they were distilling right up until 1992 when S-W shut down. They had sold S-W in the 70's and were sourcing whiskey from various sources from that point forward. They did buy the Lawrenceburg facility that had been a distillery in the past but they didn't operate it as a distillery, they just stored/blended/bottled there. They have a more formal arrangement with BT now, but after the BT partnership formed they were still bottling remaining S-W stock, probably some Bernheim stock, and the rye blend until very recently. I think they are 100% BT across their current products now but their entire legacy of the Pappy product line is as an NDP. They didn't even launch the Pappy product line until after they sold S-W 

[PaulO]

I'm not hating on VW.  If you have a newer bottle of their bourbon from a legitimate source, then yes it is from BT.  A bottle from a few years ago; much harder to say where it came from, or is it a mixture.

I don't give Willett WFE much interest.  If I knew what it was, that would be different.  Yeah, it might be good, sometimes.  It's too expensive for a pig in a poke.

Here's something ironic.  I don't much care for George Dickel Bourbon.  I do really like the MGP Rye they source.

Some of our scientist friends may answer this.  Can a lab test whiskey to determine the source?  I was thinking about maybe an electrospectragraph and comparing known samples?

[flahute]

3 hours ago, BottledInBond said:

Let's just all agree that no Van Winkle distills anything, and hasn't really distilled anything since the early 70's. 

Fully with you on that.

[Kane]

So, going back to the original discussion topic

 

Tell me one whiskey that tastes similar to Midwinter Night's Dram, Yippee ki-yay, or even the no-frills Rendezvous. Nothing I can think of. If the whiskey is as awesome as these things, and if there is no alternative, then there *must* be some form of real craft that goes into the product, sourced or not. Why hold it in low esteem?

[DaytonDawg]

Is there a list of sourced brands and who there source is 

[kevinbrink]

14 minutes ago, DaytonDawg said:

Is there a list of sourced brands and who there source is 

I think SKU used to have something listing distilleries and if they were sourced, however most knowledge of who they source from is really just speculation on many since in some instances there are NDA's in place. Some like SA or HW say/said it right on the bottle.

[DaytonDawg]

12 minutes ago, kevinbrink said:

I think SKU used to have something listing distilleries and if they were sourced, however most knowledge of who they source from is really just speculation on many since in some instances there are NDA's in place. Some like SA or HW say/said it right on the bottle.

Thanks 

 

[kevinbrink]

1 minute ago, DaytonDawg said:

Thanks 

 

http://recenteats.blogspot.com/p/the-complete-list-of-american-whiskey.html

[jvd99]

11 hours ago, Kane said:

So, going back to the original discussion topic

 

Tell me one whiskey that tastes similar to Midwinter Night's Dram, Yippee ki-yay, or even the no-frills Rendezvous. Nothing I can think of. If the whiskey is as awesome as these things, and if there is no alternative, then there *must* be some form of real craft that goes into the product, sourced or not. Why hold it in low esteem?

I agree 100%. Blending is a skill and HW is one of the best.  

[fishnbowljoe]

On September 24, 2017 at 8:26 AM, dcbt said:

For me it's an integrity issue.  If the NDP is open and upfront about their sourced whiskey, I'll buy it if I like it.  If they play games, make up stories, lie, deceive, etc, I won't buy it no matter how good it may be.

 

Xactly Bryce! This pretty much sums up my thoughts as well. There's one more thing I would add to your list though. Buying distillate (probably at a pretty decent price) and then using it for a product that is then marked up at inflated or exorbitant prices. (Willett-partial explanation further down)

 

There are NDP's that are truthful and above board. Blaum Brothers, Smooth Ambler and High West to name a few. I've been to Blaum Brothers. Great folks, and completely honest and up front about what they're doing. I love Smooth Ambler 7 year old. Again, SA makes no bones about their products. I've also been to a couple of tastings where the folks from High West were present, and had their wares to sample. Same thing. They'd answer any question you had, and would even go so far as to give you the exact run down of what was in each of their products. By all means, I can live with that. I have no problem at all buying one of their products if I happen to like it, and if the price isn't too much out of line.

 

The flip side is another animal altogether. Them that ain't quite what they make themselves out to be. Templeton Rye is pretty much the prime example here. I acquired a bottle a long time ago. I'm glad I won it as a door prize at a bowling banquet 'cause after doing some research here and finding out the truth in the matter, I swore I'd never buy a bottle. I know that some folks will be surprised by this one, but Willett is another example to me. It's a long story which I won't fully get into, but basically after being lied to twice, and stonewalled on a couple of other occasions, I lost all respect and interest in them and their products. I do have to give Willett credit for one thing though. Their timing.  There was a few years of speculation as to when they'd finally get their distillery up and running and start distilling their own products. (Yet another long story.) That finally happened. Coincidentally so, right smack dab as the bourbon boom reared it's ugly head. Go figure.    Accidental I'm sure, but they're sure making the most of it IMHO.  

 

FWIW, I have no problems at all with MGP, and/or their products. Hell, I'm a Hoosier by birth!  What can I say? 

 

Cheers! Joe

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PaulO]

I saw a travel show on PBS a while back.  The host Darley Newman went on a tour of Willett.  They showed her every stage of their whiskey production.  At the end, they brought out Willett Pot Still for a sample.  There was no mention that brand was sourced and not made there on site.  Anyone (besides people like us) would have been deceived.

[Jackinbox]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned that Blanton's, ETL, and Rock Hill Farms are all "sourced" bourbons.

[Richnimrod]

6 hours ago, Jackinbox said:

I'm surprised no one has mentioned that Blanton's, ETL, and Rock Hill Farms are all "sourced" bourbons.

..."Sourced" from the distillery that sells 'em.

That's a kinda different story, now ain't it?    Age International does indeed source the distillate used in all of it's brands; so they are an NDP, I guess.

[dcbt]

On 9/25/2017 at 7:09 PM, fishnbowljoe said:

 

Xactly Bryce! This pretty much sums up my thoughts as well. There's one more thing I would add to your list though. Buying distillate (probably at a pretty decent price) and then using it for a product that is then marked up at inflated or exorbitant prices. (Willett-partial explanation further down)

 

The flip side is another animal altogether. Them that ain't quite what they make themselves out to be. Templeton Rye is pretty much the prime example here. I acquired a bottle a long time ago. I'm glad I won it as a door prize at a bowling banquet 'cause after doing some research here and finding out the truth in the matter, I swore I'd never buy a bottle. I know that some folks will be surprised by this one, but Willett is another example to me. It's a long story which I won't fully get into, but basically after being lied to twice, and stonewalled on a couple of other occasions, I lost all respect and interest in them and their products. I do have to give Willett credit for one thing though. Their timing.  There was a few years of speculation as to when they'd finally get their distillery up and running and start distilling their own products. (Yet another long story.) That finally happened. Coincidentally so, right smack dab as the bourbon boom reared it's ugly head. Go figure.    Accidental I'm sure, but they're sure making the most of it IMHO.  

 

 

Yea, Willett and Templeton are on my blacklist as well.  So is Michters.

Edited September 27, 2017 by dcbt
typo

[HoustonNit]

Yea, Willett and Templeton are on my blacklist as well.  So is Michters.

I kind of feel like giving Willett/KBD a pass. They where sourcing way before the boom and offering some really cool stuf. Maybe 90% export but still. There the OG of NDP.

[kevinbrink]

Apart from the constantly increasing prices what are the qualms with KBD/WIllett? 

[PaulO]

Have you tried any of their stuff, or thinking about it?

[kevinbrink]

3 hours ago, PaulO said:

Have you tried any of their stuff, or thinking about it?

Agreed the quality has declined, I thought it was a statement about their business practices since it was mixed in with Templeton and Michters.

[Flyfish]

On 9/24/2017 at 2:16 PM, lcpfratn said:

 I will support craft distillers like LAWS up to a point, but if their prices don't come down over time, I probably won't be a continuing buyer unless the product really justifies the price.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Is it possible for their prices to come down? Without economies of scale, their fixed costs are spread over a relatively small number of bottles. If they increase production enough to bring their prices down, at what point do they cease to be "craft distillers"?

[lcpfratn]

Is it possible for their prices to come down? Without economies of scale, their fixed costs are spread over a relatively small number of bottles. If they increase production enough to bring their prices down, at what point do they cease to be "craft distillers"?

I'll leave it to others to define what a "craft distiller" is, but my point is that I'm willing to help craft distillers that I think have a promising future only up to a point. I won't continue to pay current prices unless the product improves with older releases and pricing remains on par with current pricing. If pricing goes down on the younger stuff and the older stuff gets premium pricing, I might go along with that as long as it's worth the price. The Laws Four Grain Bottled in Bond that I recently bought is pretty good stuff given it's age (4-5 yrs), but it's also priced similar to CEHT Four Grain, and I don't think it's as good. Give it a few more years, and it or a cask strength version might be more worthy of the current pricing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[flahute]

6 hours ago, Flyfish said:

at what point do they cease to be "craft distillers"?

 

5 hours ago, lcpfratn said:

I'll leave it to others to define what a "craft distiller" is,

Though legal requirements to qualify as "craft" can very from state to state, there is a representative organization for craft distillers called the American Craft Spirits Association.

Among other things, the define/require a craft distillery to be

"......independent licensed distillers with a valid DSP, subscribe to ACSAs Code of Ethics, have more than a 75% equity stake and/or operational control of the DSP, and annually produce fewer than 750,000 proof gallons removed from bond (the amount on which excise taxes are paid). In case terms, 750,000 proof gallons is 315,451 9-liter cases (12 750 ml bottles) of 100 proof spirit."

Some states limit production to 100,000 proof gallons which is quite a bit less.

Kentucky actually limits craft distillers to 50,000 gallons.

To make things more confusing, the Kentucky Distillers Association has a Craft level membership but their requirement is that the "distillery maintains an inventory of less than 10,000 barrels or barrel equivalents of Kentucky produced distilled beverage spirits each year."

 

So.........clear as mud.

[lcpfratn]

Though legal requirements to qualify as "craft" can very from state to state, there is a representative organization for craft distillers called the American Craft Spirits Association.
Among other things, the define/require a craft distillery to be
"......independent licensed distillers with a valid DSP, subscribe to ACSAs Code of Ethics, have more than a 75% equity stake and/or operational control of the DSP, and annually produce fewer than 750,000 proof gallons removed from bond (the amount on which excise taxes are paid). In case terms, 750,000 proof gallons is 315,451 9-liter cases (12 750 ml bottles) of 100 proof spirit."
Some states limit production to 100,000 proof gallons which is quite a bit less.
Kentucky actually limits craft distillers to 50,000 gallons.
To make things more confusing, the Kentucky Distillers Association has a Craft level membership but their requirement is that the "distillery maintains an inventory of less than 10,000 barrels or barrel equivalents of Kentucky produced distilled beverage spirits each year."
 
So.........clear as mud.

Wow! Steve, I never expected anyone to get down in the weeds and provide such a detailed and legal definition of craft distillers. Thanks for the "clarification" on this issue.