Attention Vodka Drinkers

[SteveZZZ]

Human taste buds can detect some substances in the parts per billion to parts per trillion range... TCA, the substance that causes a wine to be "corked" can be detected by some people in concentrations as low as 2 parts per trillion, although most people can't detect much less than 5 ppt. One gram of the stuff could taint a year's worth of Australia's entire wine production. An amount equal to a couple dozen grains of salt could taint an olympic sized swimming pool. Now, hopefully there is no TCA in vodka, but it is by no means the only substance that is detectable in very low concentrations. I have no problem at all believing that enough aromatics make it through the distillation process to influence the taste of the final product. I'd recommend finding a liquor store with a good selection of minis, and conducting a serious tasting of vodkas... but beware of cognitave dissonance, it works both ways

Steve

[cowdery]

Your points are all well taken. I had reached a similar conclusion. The minis are a good suggestion.

[OneCubeOnly]

Chuck--for your tasting, make sure you include Grey Goose. If you're looking for flavors & character which wouldn't be water-related, it has a non-subtle anise taste & finish.

[OneCubeOnly]

There are only four possibilities.

1) GNS is, in fact, not truly oderless, tasteless, etc. as the law requires, although presumably those are terms of art that have some legal significance, while being actually untrue, and human taste receptors can, in fact, detect residual source flavors in the 3 to 4 percent component of the distillate that is not pure ethanol. (I'm skeptical of this explanation.)

I'd be a subscriber to explanation #1 here. Again, I'd go back to the grape-origin vodka as a perfect example. If the distillate were absolutely devoid of anything residual, it shouldn't matter where it came from.

2) All ethanol is not, in fact, the same so far as taste and scent are concerned and you can taste the source material in something that is virtually pure ethanol. (I'm extremely skeptical of this one.)

I hope you didn't misunderstand my comments as suggesting this...I think this one's absurd.

3) It's the water. (My explanation for part of the phenomenon.)

If you soften the language to "part of..." then absolutely! Just not "all of..."

4) It's cognitive dissonance. (My explanation for the rest.)

I think this comes into play in just about any written discussion of spirits!

[Gillman]

I checked my bookmarks and found the wine-derived vodka I mentioned, it is Ciroc Snap Frost Vodka. See www.cirocvodka.com. It is distilled from wine made from grapes frosted over in a snap frost. The frosting concentrates the sugar in the grapes. This is sold in the U.S. now. Paul Pacult reported in 2003 that it was "sweet, ripe, grapey" and had "fruity ripeness". Of course many vodkas can taste fruity (e.g. of pineapple) but Pacult's observations seem to detect, in part at least, the product's grape origins. The company indicates a 5-step distillation process is followed. Although I can't find details, I would think the last two distillations are extractive - designed that is to lower the level of congeners that can survive even intense fractional distillation (e.g. methanol).

Just to contribute further usefully to this discussion, I want to add that I found a reference stating that the European Union allows a maximum 50 ppm. of methanol in neutral spirits. This is considerably higher than in the other countries that have adopted a national standard. The U.S. and Canada are not (from what I can glean) among these. Producers here of GNS set their own spec (i.e., beyond stated legal requirements related to 190 proof, etc.) and will aim in their best grade for much lower than 50 ppm. Apparently the EU standard is related to the fact that much spirit there is made from grapes or starchy tubers such as potatos (possibly also sugar beet) and these tend when distilled to create more methanol than other fermentables. I wonder if this explains why some Polish vodkas in particular seem more flavorful than most North American vodkas.

As I have written here before: on the rare occasions I buy vodka I buy the one which advertises the fewest distillations.

Gary

[brendaj]

Chuck,

Therefore, the only difference between the contents of a $10 bottle of vodka and a $50 bottle of vodka is that different water has been used to dilute the GNS.

This has been a most interesting thread. All the discussion of tastes makes me chuckle.

I know three vodka drinkers. Two guys and a woman. The woman drinks mixed drinks, and prefers vodka because it has no taste...

The men are both mass quantity drinkers. They drink it straight or with a splash of soda, and they prefer vodka for the same reason...no taste.

I don't know whether this makes me a snob, or a backwoods hillbilly...but I don't know anyone that drinks vodka for the taste...

Bj

[wadewood]

"Of course many vodkas can taste fruity (e.g. of pineapple)"

Last year, while on vaction in Tahiti. I purchased a bottle of locally produced vodka made made from pineapple.

[Gillman]

I had in mind non-flavoured grain vodkas but you have reminded us neutral spirits can be made from a broad range of fermentables including not just fruits but whey and even, if I am not mistaken, wood cellulose. The fruity scents of non-flavoured vodka can derive from esters and other compounds.

Gary

[kitzg]

Chuck, if you try a taste test (I have) be sure to get a bottle of Rain Vodka.

I feel pretty certain that if you put a specific Russian vodka, a specific Polish vodka, and Rain Vodka (from Buffalo Trace) many will claim a difference in taste. Frankly, I can taste corn in Rain -- and that is the grain from which it is distilled. Rain goes from grain to finished product in Frankfort, KY. I subscribe to the theory that some of the original substance comes through.

Once you make a martini or vodka tonic -- forget it. I don't see how you can claim much of a difference.

I also point out that many US vodkas come from exactly the same source and cannot be any different from each other except for the dilution and the bottle.

[Paradox]

I remembered this discussion about vodka while at dinner the other night when I saw this advertisement card on the table... I snapped a quick pic of it if anyone is interestind in this 'unique' (?) new product from Absolut.

[Gillman]

Interesting because I was just reading about Absolut Blue Vodka (the regular label), and the ad copy said the vodka is distilled in a column apparatus 4 times to near neutrality and then some "low proof" spirit is added to it to add flavour. The source I read did not state the low proof spirit is made in batches but I suspect the process is the same in both cases (probably it is the same drink). This practice reminds me of the Canadian distillation practice of adding some straight whiskey to a high proof bland-tasting base spirit to lend character.

It sounds, perhaps, like a spin is being put on a traditional Absolut practice. This explains in any case why vodkas really do taste different, some are combinations of high and lower proof distillates, many are flavoured with sugar, apple spirits or other additives, and of course the particular type of water used may add its own stamp of difference.

Gary

[cowdery]

Mark Brown once explained the Rain vodka production process, which I don't precisely remember because I didn't care, but I remember it went through four distillations in four different stills and at least one was a pot or batch still. (Rain is made by Buffalo Trace.)

The point remains, though, that it is still essentially a quest for neutrality, which is great for Switzerland but not something I get excited about drinking.

[TNbourbon]

We've had the Absolut Level vodka in the store a couple of weeks now and, so far as I know, have not sold a single bottle yet. Absolut and its various flavored vodkas, however, remain good sellers. But the Level is in a level by itself -- $8-$10 more than the regular Absolut. So, the good news is that Absolut does not seem to be cannibalizing its own market; the bad news is it doesn't seem to be cannibalizing anyone else's yet, either.

[Gillman]

I wonder, apart from packaging, what distinguishes the higher-priced Absolut from the regular Blue version. Maybe more pot still distillate is added to the newbie than to the Blue. Since the advertising makes mention of the pot still (batch) element, this is plausible. A number of vodkas over the years have advertised pot still production, I believe both Grey Goose and Ketel fall into this category. Of course, a pot still can be subjected to numerous distillations so as to lighten and render the spirit rather mild-tasting; clearly this is the case with Grey Goose which remains still a distinctive and interesting vodka.

Gary

[Black85L98]

I don't know whether this makes me a snob, or a backwoods hillbilly...but I don't know anyone that drinks vodka for the taste...

Bj

Brenda

I think it makes you someone on a quest for good TASTE. Something Vodka drinkers are trying to avoid. I want my bourbon pure but far from tasteless. All Vodka tastes much the same to me. The hangover may change relative to price.

[Gillman]

I agree and yet somehow vodka, especially well-iced, goes well on certain occasions. It suits the time when one wants a quick drink (hard to chug bourbon). Or before certain foods, or occasionally in summer. Recently I tried Ciroc (the one distilled from grape wine) and it certainly had a light fruity overlay, it went well before the beer at the barbeque. I have it only rarely, but once in a while it hits the spot. I like it neat, very cold, in shot glasses brimful. One is enough.

Gary

[Black85L98]

Do not get me wrong I love a good bloody mary and even a fuzzy navel or white russian every now and then. For me Vodka is for mixing. It is good for that and the cheapest is as good as the best for mixing.

[musher]

For me Vodka is for mixing. It is good for that and the cheapest is as good as the best for mixing.

I wouldn't quite go that far.

I just bought a bottle of Smirnoff 90 proof vodka last month for my wife's White Russians, and it had the scent of rubbing alcohol. She did not like it, even buried under the Kahlua and milk. We've since replaced it with something a bit more pleasant on the nose.

[cowdery]

I started this thread with a prejudice that has since been modified if not entirely abated. I trust the contributors here and they said, "try some," so I did. When I buy vodka at all it typically is the cheapest American brand. Buying for a party not long ago, I picked up a bottle of Svedka, which is an Absolut knockoff. I also had some Skol in the house (a cheap American vodka) so I compared the two. There is a noticable difference. The Skol has a distinct alcohol taste. The Svedka is more nearly neutral, virtually like drinking water.

[TNbourbon]

We steer a lot of store customers to Svedka as a 'value' vodka, and most are pleased. Polar Ice, also, which is ridiculously cheap at the 1.75L size, and generally positively received.

And, I'm a fan of Buffalo Trace's Rain, though I seldom drink vodka, so don't have some at hand at present.

[Gillman]

This thread has prompted me to read up on vodka more than ever before. The Polish brands seem the most likely to offer flavor even in "unflavored" versions. This is because a number of them are not highly rectified and are made so as to show flavour (or the influence) of the cereals they are made from. A lot of interesting information is available www.polishvodka.com. This site has collected a number of technical articles by experts, most seemingly translated from Polish. They offer notes and discussion of brands and trends in consumption. One writer proposes a three-part classification for vodka: the Western-style neutral type; the flavoured type (using fruits, sugar, pepper, spices, what have you); and the unflavored type which is not quite neutral in taste due to not being as highly rectified as the first group. The site mentions Wyoborowa, a Polish vodka made entirely from rye, as a classic vodka offering a naturally creamy and spicy rye taste. (The renowned Starka brand is another example and others are mentioned or discussed in other sources). Wyoborowa is all-rye spirit distilled twice in pot stills. While no doubt subjected to some kind of rectification to meet the legal test for vodka, this brand, according to many commentators, offers fine flavor at a reasonable price. In 1997 it finished first in a blind tasting of vodkas held by a London newspaper, for example. The company which makes it is owned now by Pernod Ricard which apparently has not interfered with the original formulation. From taste descriptions, I believe this kind of Polish vodka may work well in some of the cocktails I make combining different bourbons, spirits and flavorings. I have noted the discussion about brown sugar in bourbon. I have never tried that but have added a very small amount of maple syrup to a blend of bourbons and the result was very good. Too much of the flavoring can "kill" the whiskey taste, however. I have found as little as 1%-2% is sufficient (essentially a dash only to a glass). This seemingly low percentage of additive is in line with recommendations in old blending manuals.

[Gillman]

On the website I just mentioned, a home recipe is given from 1937 which is said to be "very close" to Starka vodka. Starka is a famous old-style vodka, made from lower proof rye spirit and long-aged in wood, so a form of rye whiskey, in effect. Starka was traditionally and still is aged in barrels that had held (again according to this website) "southern wines", i.e., sweet sherry, port or Malaga wine. Mark had just mentioned Imperial stout, and an Australian contributor drew our attention to a Jim Beam Bourbon sold "down under" flavored with port wine. Well, this old home recipe to emulate Starka vodka utilises two additions very close to port and strong stout, namely sweet Malaga wine and Baltic porter beer. Interested readers will want to consult the site for full details but essentially the recipe involves adding to good spirit some Malaga, a glass of porter (alternate local name for an Imperial-type stout), and a handful of hazelnut shells! I would think the shells and porter beer would emulate the effects of cask aging (e.g., give a nutty taste and increased body). The Malaga wine is similar to some of the blending agents traditionally used to flavor or marry new or blended spirits. I don't know if I will ever try to make this mixture but it makes for interesting reading.

Gary

[tdelling]

For further reading, the latest issue of American Distller (No. 16, April

2004) is all about artisan vodkas. I especially liked the article about

Silver Creek Distillers in Idaho.

You can get it in PDF form from www.distilling.com, although they don't

really have a lot of bandwidth and so the website is sometimes slow.

Tim Dellinger

[voigtman]

Gary, Are you sure you didn't mean this URL:

http://www.polishvodka.com.pl/

The site has evolved over the years, but seems to improve (unlike many web sites and cobweb sites). The history section is great reading. And every time I think of vodka, which I haven't touched in about 20 years, I want to try a sip of that astonishing 50 year old Starka: the pictures show a beautiful red color, with no coloring added, and, as you say, it must really be a relative of rye whiskey. The folks who make Starka say they have 53 year old Starka in progress (!), who knows when it will be ready? Cheers, Ed

[Gillman]

Ed, many thanks for correcting me, indeed this is the URL I meant to draw attention to. I note too, on checking the 1937 Starka recipe "home-style", that it involves dried tea leaves in addition to the rye vodka, Malaga wine, Porter and hazelnut shells I had indicated. Sounds like a "strange brew", maybe someone will essay that for the Gazebo tastings in September! I too would like to try the real Starka, at any age, but I have never been able to find it. I believe it may taste like old-style American rye whiskey made from an all rye + barley malt mash (no corn) and showing a fruity character from addition of a fruit-based blending agent or the natural estery quality that may have derived from the top-acting yeasts used (I presume) in the old days to ferment the mash.

Gary