Will Saos be able to capture their former glory

[FasterHorses]

Anyone know whats going on there? With the return to mgp will they be able to be what they were? Was it that good or was it the era and the price and the lack of mgp competitors that is missed? Great article attached.

http://whiskyadvocate.com/smooth-ambler-brings-back-old-scout-bourbon/

[OldScoutGuy]

I think this article proposes some interesting light on the MGP discussion:

 

https://www.bourbonplus.com/is-there-pre-fire-mgp/

 

Early Smooth Ambler Seagrams / MGP barrels were simply amazing. The 8 to 10 year cask strength bottles they put out are some of best bourbons you'll ever taste. I don't the factors that made it different, but it was heads and tails better than other MGP offerings from other companies. I've tasted the first batch of Old Scout (5 year) a couple of times. I've tasted this new 5 Year Old Scout. I can't even put into words how vastly inferior the new stuff is. I think early Old Scout was lightning in bottle that likely can not be reproduced. And I have to wonder if post Seagrams MPG is really the same?

[FasterHorses]

I guess when these 5s turn into 7s and 9s some sbs’s will be helpful in answering the questions in the second article.  I just hope they dont go all willett on us and ask $160 for a 6 yr.  That would tarnish their brand and  good reputation they have in the spirits community.

[BottledInBond]

1 hour ago, OldScoutGuy said:

I think this article proposes some interesting light on the MGP discussion:

 

https://www.bourbonplus.com/is-there-pre-fire-mgp/

 

Early Smooth Ambler Seagrams / MGP barrels were simply amazing. The 8 to 10 year cask strength bottles they put out are some of best bourbons you'll ever taste. I don't the factors that made it different, but it was heads and tails better than other MGP offerings from other companies. I've tasted the first batch of Old Scout (5 year) a couple of times. I've tasted this new 5 Year Old Scout. I can't even put into words how vastly inferior the new stuff is. I think early Old Scout was lightning in bottle that likely can not be reproduced. And I have to wonder if post Seagrams MPG is really the same?

Well, I think others have bottled some pretty darn good MGP whiskey as well. Specifically as an example, the Willett MGP ryes were just as good in my eyes, if not better. But of course, they were also priced higher. That was part of what made the first era of SAOS amazing, that the whiskey was really good while also priced relatively inexpensive. 
 

I’ve tasted multiple barrel pick samples of the new stuff that were about 5.5 years. If the barrel samples I tasted hit the shelf at $50 or less I think people will be happy with their purchase in the current market environment. I haven’t tasted the new standard shelf product and maybe that won’t be as good as the samples I tasted, as clearly those were picked for a reason. 
 

On the overall question of if it’ll ever be the same again, that answer is probably doubtful. That’s for multiple reasons. One of which is that there is a major change in that the new barrels are all being aged their whole lives at Smooth Ambler. The barrels from the first era of Old Scout spent years aging at MGP. That change of aging location doesn’t 100% mean better or worse, but it does mean different. Another change is that MGP has a different master distiller now than it did when the first era of Old Scout barrels were produced. Third fairly big difference, today MGP has created its own house labels. They may very well be a little more picky about what barrels they want to keep especially since they’ve tested the market for their own high end LE releases fairly successfully, and thus Smooth Ambler may not be getting the very best barrels being filled. 
 

I always loved their rye releases, so I’ll be patiently awaiting the return of that now

[OldScoutGuy]

I would agree that the rye is a different animal. I too have tasted exceptional MGP rye from other companies. Fingers crossed this next wave of MGP rye ages just as well.

Edited February 20, 2020 by OldScoutGuy

[Ryan Dee]

IMPO, no I don't think it will ever be what it was since it all matures in WV anymore (or most of it anyway). I also believe they are using their own distillate now, and not so much MGP when doing blending/runs, but I could be wrong on that, but that's just how it tastes/feels to me.

 

One of the best one's I had was the 7yr 107. I doubt that will truly come back to what it once was either. Maybe if we can find a 10yr Single barrel we might trip on something, esp since it's the high rye MB. But I have not seen or heard of any of these in quite some time, even down in TX where I've seen them before.

 

I sampled the new 5yr 99pf bottling's and it was just not the same. Even the Contradiction (92pf) isn't the same. And I still have some of the original 100pf  left in my inventory.

[FasterHorses]

12 minutes ago, Ryan Dee said:

IMPO, no I don't think it will ever be what it was since it all matures in WV anymore (or most of it anyway). I also believe they are using their own distillate now, and not so much MGP when doing blending/runs, but I could be wrong on that, but that's just how it tastes/feels to me.

 

One of the best one's I had was the 7yr 107. I doubt that will truly come back to what it once was either. Maybe if we can find a 10yr Single barrel we might trip on something, esp since it's the high rye MB. But I have not seen or heard of any of these in quite some time, even down in TX where I've seen them before.

 

I sampled the new 5yr 99pf bottling's and it was just not the same. Even the Contradiction (92pf) isn't the same. And I still have some of the original 100pf  left in my inventory.

Did you read the attached articles? 

[Ryan Dee]

14 minutes ago, FasterHorses said:

Did you read the attached articles? 

Yes, but doesn't change my thought's on it. I'm sure Pernod Ricard has plans, but usually it means less quality going into the bottle. Proximo did the same thing with Stranahan's, this will most likely be similar. We still have not had clarity of where the barrels are sitting, nor how much blending of there own whiskey is being done in the Old Scout line. Yes they are sourced, but they can still add there own whiskey when doing a vatting before bottling. It can still rest for 3-6 months to help it blend together better. As long as it's all 5yr (or more), the rest is just open for interpretation I guess. 

 

 

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but there seems to be a fitting pattern sometimes when purchases from large conglomerate's occur like this.

[Ryan Dee]

I'll add to my own comments through personal experience as well. MGP released an In-House brand call Eight & Sand. I was able to get them here and I tried it thinking/hoping it would be similar or show signs of what once was. Unfortunately it was just OK. Sure, you can't expect much from a $27 bottle of whiskey, but I have been surprised before.

 

If this was a mere glimpse of what might be coming in the near future, then my confidence was waning a bit.

 

[FasterHorses]

1 hour ago, Ryan Dee said:

Yes, but doesn't change my thought's on it. I'm sure Pernod Ricard has plans, but usually it means less quality going into the bottle. Proximo did the same thing with Stranahan's, this will most likely be similar. We still have not had clarity of where the barrels are sitting, nor how much blending of there own whiskey is being done in the Old Scout line. Yes they are sourced, but they can still add there own whiskey when doing a vatting before bottling. It can still rest for 3-6 months to help it blend together better. As long as it's all 5yr (or more), the rest is just open for interpretation I guess. 

 

 

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but there seems to be a fitting pattern sometimes when purchases from large conglomerate's occur like this.

I think you skimmed over this part

Going forward, Smooth Ambler will offer three distinct whiskey lines: Old Scout, which will always be sourced;

 

the label says distilled in Indiana. No getting around that.

Edited February 20, 2020 by FasterHorses

[Ryan Dee]

5 minutes ago, FasterHorses said:

I think you skimmed over this part

Going forward, Smooth Ambler will offer three distinct whiskey lines: Old Scout, which will always be sourced;

No Sir, read and comprehended it very well. Stating it will always be sourced is 1 thing, but unless they say they are not adding/blending any of there own during the process, then that is where I begin questioning things. 

 

I never got into High West, but I recall many being disappointed in some of the more recent offerings because of them blending there own distillate in with already sourced whiskey, unless I'm mistaking this for another brand??

[smokinjoe]

“Former Glory” is to SAOS, as Former Great President is to Millard Fillmore.  Neither were much to write home about.  

[flahute]

4 hours ago, Ryan Dee said:

No Sir, read and comprehended it very well. Stating it will always be sourced is 1 thing, but unless they say they are not adding/blending any of there own during the process, then that is where I begin questioning things. 

 

I never got into High West, but I recall many being disappointed in some of the more recent offerings because of them blending there own distillate in with already sourced whiskey, unless I'm mistaking this for another brand??

Old Scout is still labeled as Straight Bourbon Whiskey. If they were blending in their own, the bourbon would be from two different states which I believe means it would have to be called a blend of straight bourbon whiskeys or some similar variant.

So, by labeling as Straight, they are essentially saying they aren't blending in their own.

[Bob_Loblaw]

With so many mashbills and large production my theory is that there are pockets of great MGP barrels that get aged in the right circumstances and turn magical.  Willett, OKI, SAOS, Blaum., to a slightly lessor degree Belle Meade and Boone County.   There are others, but to me, those are the ones moving the radar.  Then there is a whole lot of ho hum MGP.

 

What's changed is both the cost and the age of the barrels being sold.  There was a podcast with New Riff where the talked about the OKI barrels, and I want to say they cost something ridiculous like $600 each at the time.  I've heard that current MGP stocks are way more in the 2 year range.  So you are paying way more money on a much younger product.   I'd imagine it is significantly harder to know if a barrel will be elite at 10-12 years when it is 2 then when it is 6-7.  For example, does anyone know at what age most barrels get designated as Pappy?  Not to mention that with younger barrels external factors will play a much larger role in how the final product ends up.  Where/how are they stored? In what climate? 

 

This is a roundabout way of saying maybe, but I think unlikely for SA to repeat into past glory  There will be more pockets of great MGP (at a much higher price point), but where/when they will appear is hard to say especially with  increased variability.  Just like a honey barrel pick, when you taste it, and it blows your sail, load up!!

[FasterHorses]

On 2/20/2020 at 7:10 PM, smokinjoe said:

“Former Glory” is to SAOS, as Former Great President is to Millard Fillmore.  Neither were much to write home about.  

Ha! I remember you are not much of an MGP fan. I can understand that after seeing some of the unbelievable bottles you own.  Is there any MGP youve almost liked.. if you had to drink some?

[smokinjoe]

16 minutes ago, FasterHorses said:

Ha! I remember you are not much of an MGP fan. I can understand that after seeing some of the unbelievable bottles you own.  Is there any MGP youve almost liked.. if you had to drink some?

Well, I do like some of their ryes.  
 

As stand alone Bourbons, I just think they’re mediocre, blasé, and, lacking much character.  I have enjoyed (some, even greatly) that were finished or blended as the primary base, however.  Personally, I feel MGP was in the right place at the right time in the bourbon boom, and it and SAOS became a bubble of hype from that boom.  In SAs case, because it’s private barrel selection program became about the only thing a group or retail outlet could get that was not just standard fare from the legacies, they were hyped to no end as something special.  People craved a “New” Willett (who had gained much deserved praise and notoriety with their plethora of wonderful gems that were uncovered and bottled for several years) as an untapped gold mine of special whiskey.  But IMO, there has been no gold found.  Hype. Only Hype.  

[Kepler]

33 minutes ago, smokinjoe said:

In SAs case, because it’s private barrel selection program became about the only thing a group or retail outlet could get that was not just standard fare from the legacies, they were hyped to no end as something special.  People craved a “New” Willett (who had gained much deserved praise and notoriety with their plethora of wonderful gems that were uncovered and bottled for several years) as an untapped gold mine of special whiskey.  But IMO, there has been no gold found.  Hype. Only Hype.  

 

You may be right about the hype in some circles, and I can't speak to that one way or another because I was totally oblivious to whatever hype you're referring to. I literally had never heard nor seen anything about SAOS when I bought my first several bottles, initially by recommendation from my respected local store. At that time I was not plugged into SB.com and was not getting any info about bourbon from groups or forums such as this.  My own taste buds led me to realize how great some of their single barrels are. A "new willett"??  No, but those famous old Willetts are before my time. I can just confidently say that I have many SAOS bottles in my bunker from honey barrels that I practically guarantee would make you reconsider at least a bit. True, all of them are not spectacular but some absolutely are. They are some of the very best bottles in my not unremarkable stash.

[Clueby]

I'm definitely in the minority that I've never gone gaga over any of the old SAOS or any other well aged MGP that others seem to fall all over.  I just never found it that remarkable. It was ok, decent bourbon but nothing special to my taste buds.  I never tried any of the old "legendary" Willetts but had plenty SAOS of varying ages and proofs.  I don't think I have any MGP bourbon at all right now and I'm ok with that.

[fishnbowljoe]

I liked the SAOS (7?) back in the day. The problem in my area was the infrequency of when it showed up. It was very hit and miss. I’d grab a bottle once in a while, and even brought back a few from a vacation three or four years ago.  Good thing I did. It completely disappeared  here. The only SA available until recently was the SA Contradiction. As it so happens, the SAOS just showed up here once again. FWIW, I’ll probably pass on the new bottles. Besides, the only bottles I saw here were of the “James” variety. Now if they were Sarah....... 

 

Biba! Joe

[Richnimrod]

I've had several (of various iterations) from SAOS that were stellar Bourbons (many of those were private picks; but not all were).    I've also had a few 'clunkers' and more than a few that were only ordinary.   So there you are.   

As with many "sourced" brands, they could always be a little hit-or-miss... and of late mostly 'miss'; so I haven't bought any more in at least two years, maybe three.

[Shizzy]

Give this a listen.  It may be enlightening.  The two John of SA talk about their product lines.  Including SAOS.

 

https://bourbonpursuit.com/smooth-ambler-podcasts/

 

[Shizzy]

On 2/20/2020 at 5:18 PM, flahute said:

 If they were blending in their own, the bourbon would be from two different states which I believe means it would have to be called a blend of straight bourbon whiskeys or some similar variant.

 

I think it would technically be fine to call it SBW still.  They just have to list all states it's distilled in.  Similar to what Barrell is doing.  That said, I recall listening to a podcast with them talking about SAOS and they said it would always be sourced MGP.  I believe they bought 3 year old and new make.  A lot of it.  And plan to do so ongoing.  I'm sure it'll never be the same, but different isn't necessarily a bad thing.

[flahute]

2 hours ago, Shizzy said:

I think it would technically be fine to call it SBW still.  They just have to list all states it's distilled in.  Similar to what Barrell is doing.  That said, I recall listening to a podcast with them talking about SAOS and they said it would always be sourced MGP.  I believe they bought 3 year old and new make.  A lot of it.  And plan to do so ongoing.  I'm sure it'll never be the same, but different isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I don't have any bottles of Barrel handy to check, but a quick perusal of their website shows mostly labels that simply state "bourbon whiskey" whereas the description on the website refers to it as a "blend of straight bourbon whiskeys".

Single barrel labels say "straight bourbon whiskey" on the label.

The New Year blends state "blend of straight bourbon whiskeys" on the label.

I still think the rules state that the word Straight without any other qualifiers means that it has to come from one State.

[Shizzy]

9 minutes ago, flahute said:

I don't have any bottles of Barrel handy to check, but a quick perusal of their website shows mostly labels that simply state "bourbon whiskey" whereas the description on the website refers to it as a "blend of straight bourbon whiskeys".

Single barrel labels say "straight bourbon whiskey" on the label.

The New Year blends state "blend of straight bourbon whiskeys" on the label.

I still think the rules state that the word Straight without any other qualifiers means that it has to come from one State.

Yeah, when I "think" too much I'm typically at the peak of what my pea brain can recall from memory.  One of these days I'll learn to research my entire thought before putting it in ink on the internets.   It must be from the same state to be "straight" if blended.  Or, as you've noted above, state that it is a blend of straight bourbon whiskies with the states of distillation noted as well.

[flahute]

4 minutes ago, Shizzy said:

Yeah, when I "think" too much I'm typically at the peak of what my pea brain can recall from memory.  One of these days I'll learn to research my entire thought before putting it in ink on the internets.   It must be from the same state to be "straight" if blended.  Or, as you've noted above, state that it is a blend of straight bourbon whiskies with the states of distillation noted as well.

LOL. The rules around bourbon can get complicated and it's hard to remember them all. I usually have to go back and do a little research just to make sure my memory bank is still current.