Store pick premium pricing/gouging

[Dannabis]

So when I was last on my bourbon kicks, store picks were priced basicly identically to the shelf versions.

 

Now when I go shopping, every store pick has atleast a 30$ premium/gouge tacked on to it above the shelf version.

 

At that price, it is toooooo high a risk to reward for me now. Oftentimes I can almost buy two shelf bottles for the price of an unknown store pick. 

They don't do store pick tastings it seems, so I have no way of knowing that the pick is THAT much better than a rando or a plain bottle of OF100, WT101 or even EWBIB.

 

What are your thoughts on the store pick inflation/tatering?

 

I used to love trying store picks to find different flavor profiles of familiar products, but I've had many bad picks where either my palate had nothing in common with the pickers or I talked to the store and they admitted to just having a few barrel samples sent to them and picking basicly any of them, willynilly like.

 

This all leaves a sour taste in my mouth and not whiskey sour.

Edited September 24, 2022 by Dannabis

[markandrex]

With several local stores I have to agree with you.  Some have a palette that is very similar to mine.  Several have a very different perspective.  I tend to stick with the stores I know that align with  me unless there is a sample offered.  Even then I have politely walked away from a lot of questionable picks.

[berto]

There are stores that know what they doing when making picks, stores that phone it in and let the distributor or distiller make the picks, and stores that reward friends or customers or any bozo they met at the airport make picks.  Then there's palate alignment or not.  And many stores are given a take it or leave it selection by the distillery as the days of going through multiple sets of samples until something hits or even passing on anything less than great are long gone.  All that to say the game has changes and not for the better.  I might pay a premium for someplace I know and trust.  I'm not paying a premium taking a flyer.   

[smokinjoe]

Honestly speaking, I’ve seen little of this type of gouging on retail PS offerings in my area.  Maybe, a $5 up charge, but I’m not even sure on that.  So, I guess I’m lucky.  Regardless, a $30 up charge that y’all are seeing would have me walking on by.  That type of pay to play requirement is really an insult to their customer base.  

[flahute]

It's happening right now at Total Wine out here. They have a store pick of RRSiB priced at $94. The shelf version, when in stock, is $70.

When the shelf version shows up it flies off the shelf. The store pick however has been there for more than a month now so people aren't biting it seems.

Even though I haven't seen the shelf version in more than a year I have refused to buy the store pick.

[Skinsfan1311]

My favorite local LS for picks,  and they have some great ones that are really in my wheelhouse,  rarely up charge.  When they do, it's minimal.

Hell, they charge $5.00 less than MSRP for their JDSBBP picks, (they've done a couple) , and they're really good.

They let you "try before you buy", which should be mandatory, as far as I'm concerned.

That, combined with a knowledgeable staff, and a resident whiskey expert, makes me a happy customer.

 

[Skinsfan1311]

1 hour ago, smokinjoe said:

Honestly speaking, I’ve seen little of this type of gouging on retail PS offerings in my area.  Maybe, a $5 up charge, but I’m not even sure on that.  So, I guess I’m lucky.  Regardless, a $30 up charge that y’all are seeing would have me walking on by.  That type of pay to play requirement is really an insult to their customer base.  

Damn right. 

[Grady330]

17 hours ago, Skinsfan1311 said:

My favorite local LS for picks,  and they have some great ones that are really in my wheelhouse,  rarely up charge.  When they do, it's minimal.

Hell, they charge $5.00 less than MSRP for their JDSBBP picks, (they've done a couple) , and they're really good.

They let you "try before you buy", which should be mandatory, as far as I'm concerned.

That, combined with a knowledgeable staff, and a resident whiskey expert, makes me a happy customer.

 

Same here. We( owner, manager and I) just got in our EC Sib pick come in. Price is $37.00, Less then the shelf and it should be, they get a deal for 19 six packs.  And it is damn good. 

[Old Hippie]

It might help to understand that the store generally pays more for their store picks. When a distiller makes a batch of their main whiskies they will often blend 100 to 200 barrels together. This way they get it to taste the same every time and they can add in their lesser quality barrels. When they do single barrels the distillery will use only the barrels that put a good shine on their brand, and these barrels often come from the honey locations of their wharehouses, consequently they do and should charge more. 

Also for some stores, supply and demand come into play. Most of the bigger stores will sell out their store picks in a matter of a few days so they charge more. I can't blame them one bit. Basically, if it's too high - don't buy it. Also there are much less Single Barrels available today versus pre-Covid.

[smokinjoe]

52 minutes ago, Old Hippie said:

It might help to understand that the store generally pays more for their store picks. When a distiller makes a batch of their main whiskies they will often blend 100 to 200 barrels together. This way they get it to taste the same every time and they can add in their lesser quality barrels. When they do single barrels the distillery will use only the barrels that put a good shine on their brand, and these barrels often come from the honey locations of their wharehouses, consequently they do and should charge more. 

Also for some stores, supply and demand come into play. Most of the bigger stores will sell out their store picks in a matter of a few days so they charge more. I can't blame them one bit. Basically, if it's too high - don't buy it. Also there are much less Single Barrels available today versus pre-Covid.

You’re an industry guy, so I’ll take what you say as generally being correct, but I’ve never heard that stores generally pay more for their store picks.  I’ve had this discussion with many store owners on this, and the message has been that they cost the same as standard.  

[Bob_Loblaw]

5 hours ago, smokinjoe said:

You’re an industry guy, so I’ll take what you say as generally being correct, but I’ve never heard that stores generally pay more for their store picks.  I’ve had this discussion with many store owners on this, and the message has been that they cost the same as standard.  

My understanding as well having done several picks with my local is that the cost is the same.  Never heard anything to the contrary.  Maybe the distributer takes a lager cut?  I can't say I ever saw invoices or anything.

[Jazz June]

For picks with a standard “shelf” version, they are sometimes the same SKU and therefore the same price as the shelf version. Now I don’t know what costs the distributors are charging the retailers in non-control states, but I’d be surprised if VA ABC pays more for a pick versus regular issue when they are sold under the same SKU at the same price. Many expressions available as picks are already single barrel anyway so the costs should be the same unless they are factoring in the pick experience as a cost.

[mbroo5880i]

I don't know the financial or market specifics but I recall being able to purchase single barrel versions of batched bourbons that were often quite stellar and generally slightly lower in price.  My impression is that as the interwebs began to celebrate and promote these picks as alternatives to the increasingly difficult to obtain LE bourbons, stores and the masses drove pricing on store picks to equal to standard bottle pricing and then to a premium.  

 

I might pay a $5 premium for a store pick if single barrel and at the same proof as the standard bottle.  I might pay more if it is a single barrel at a premium proof to the standard bottle.  Example, one store had their pick of EC SiB NAS for $39.99 while the standard EC NAS bottle was $24.99.  Same proof.  What?  I need to see something to suggest paying 40% premium.  Age statement, proof difference.  They didn't even have the option of sampling the store pick.

[fishnbowljoe]

I’m pretty sure private picks used to be slightly cheaper in my area. Things changed with the bourbon boom. Distributors started playing games, and off premise accounts started getting more of “the good stuff”. Lots of rumors, speculation and finger pointing. It really doesn’t matter much anymore though. Many of the stores in my area have turned tater regarding most decent offerings in general. The few non-tater stores at the very least charge a premium. Even Binny’s prices are a bit higher. 

[Skinsfan1311]

22 hours ago, Old Hippie said:

It might help to understand that the store generally pays more for their store picks. When a distiller makes a batch of their main whiskies they will often blend 100 to 200 barrels together. This way they get it to taste the same every time and they can add in their lesser quality barrels. When they do single barrels the distillery will use only the barrels that put a good shine on their brand, and these barrels often come from the honey locations of their wharehouses, consequently they do and should charge more. 

Also for some stores, supply and demand come into play. Most of the bigger stores will sell out their store picks in a matter of a few days so they charge more. I can't blame them one bit. Basically, if it's too high - don't buy it. Also there are much less Single Barrels available today versus pre-Covid.

Gotta agree to disagree that they pay more.   

The possible exceptions being the states that use the arcane distributorship system, (I'm looking at you, Maryland).

 

[Jazz June]

For products where the shelf version is already a single barrel, I look at it like this: why would some group/store I don't know necessarily get a better barrel than the product's regular version?

 

In the good old days, maybe most or all pick programs were supplied with hand selected "honey" barrels, but that is certainly not the case today. There is also the fact of the distilleries picking barrels for the program to be on profile, which would suggest they broadly match the shelf version.

 

For products that do not have a shelf equivalent at all, it's a totally different animal and then the price would just be gauged relative to MSRP in non-control states.

 

With normally batched products, my goal with a single barrel pick would be to get a particularly good barrel or an interesting/off-profile barrel. For example, I did a pick of 1792 Full Proof, which is normally batched. At least one of the barrels I considered worse than batched/shelf 1792 Full Proof, one was a similar profile but better than the shelf version, and one was off-profile for the expression. The latter two make for good single barrels, depending on what you are looking for. If a store/group reliably hits that target, I could see a small premium being justified, but at the end of the day, how much better/more interesting than the batched version is it really going to be?

 

I think the large majority of mark-ups on picks are due to hype/their perceived special-ness. Picks where you know the picker(s) are still a good way to find good whiskey at a reasonable price, but the word on this eventually went out far and wide as LEs became more and more impossible to get for reasonable prices. The myriad stores and pick groups that sell to a large audience online for profit are incentivized to hype their picks to get them sold quickly and at inflated prices. The prices paid for new NDP labels based on hype/stickers/other things besides the liquid in the bottle boggle me. Groups even do a series of picks with a sticker theme; they might as well be selling Pokemon. Smaller brick and mortar reliant stores may not have the audience of the online retailer/group, but they still respond to overall market conditions. A number of such stores in this area have jumped on the pick hype train and try to mark their picks up like crazy. When a store puts a barrel of Weller Full Proof out for sale at $200-250 and it disappears with people online calling it a good deal, what do you think they are going to do next time?

 

As noted on this board many, many times, try before you buy is a best practice, but I know that is not always possible. For control states like mine (Virginia), the state stores get picks but they are primarily (or all) distillery/distributor picks. There are restaurants and private groups doing picks, but groups aren't necessarily open to join and restaurants have their own pricing issues (and at least here, can't legally sell you a bottle, although it does happen).

 

Ultimately, my advice on picks is that relationships count. Those relationships may involve trial and error purchases, but that's how you will learn. Even in groups that you are committed to, not every pick will be a favorite; there is some taking the good with the bad. But I wouldn't be all that interested in building a relationship with a store/group that gouges. Stores need to make money and groups may need to cover some expenses (those crazy stickers aren't free), but these should be kept within reason. When and if the bubble pops, the gougers are going to be left high and dry because they don't have any real relationships. I hope they get stuck with barrels and barrels of Old Nonsense four year old finished in an old oil drum.

[Anwalt]

48 minutes ago, Jazz June said:

I hope they get stuck with barrels and barrels of Old Nonsense four year old finished in an old oil drum.

 

That got a snorted chuckle.  Glad coffee was in the cup & not my mouth.

 

I appreciate your posts.  Invariably well-reasoned & leavened with experience.  Thanks!

[PaulO]

Bear with me, I've stated some of this before.

It used to be a store got a deal price on buying a whole barrel.  Then they passed the deal along, because there was suddenly a lot of inventory to move.  Kahn's in Indy used to do this, and have single barrel OWA a buck or so less than the normal version.  Ha-ha, I'll tell that one to my grandchildren.

Nowadays though, no one's leaving any money on the table.  If some customers will pay more for "single barrel" it gets charged.

Personally, I'd really take some convincing to pay any mark up over standard MSRP anything.

[Skinsfan1311]

10 hours ago, Jazz June said:

For products where the shelf version is already a single barrel, I look at it like this: why would some group/store I don't know necessarily get a better barrel than the product's regular version?

 

In the good old days, maybe most or all pick programs were supplied with hand selected "honey" barrels, but that is certainly not the case today. There is also the fact of the distilleries picking barrels for the program to be on profile, which would suggest they broadly match the shelf version.

 

For products that do not have a shelf equivalent at all, it's a totally different animal and then the price would just be gauged relative to MSRP in non-control states.

 

With normally batched products, my goal with a single barrel pick would be to get a particularly good barrel or an interesting/off-profile barrel. For example, I did a pick of 1792 Full Proof, which is normally batched. At least one of the barrels I considered worse than batched/shelf 1792 Full Proof, one was a similar profile but better than the shelf version, and one was off-profile for the expression. The latter two make for good single barrels, depending on what you are looking for. If a store/group reliably hits that target, I could see a small premium being justified, but at the end of the day, how much better/more interesting than the batched version is it really going to be?

 

I think the large majority of mark-ups on picks are due to hype/their perceived special-ness. Picks where you know the picker(s) are still a good way to find good whiskey at a reasonable price, but the word on this eventually went out far and wide as LEs became more and more impossible to get for reasonable prices. The myriad stores and pick groups that sell to a large audience online for profit are incentivized to hype their picks to get them sold quickly and at inflated prices. The prices paid for new NDP labels based on hype/stickers/other things besides the liquid in the bottle boggle me. Groups even do a series of picks with a sticker theme; they might as well be selling Pokemon. Smaller brick and mortar reliant stores may not have the audience of the online retailer/group, but they still respond to overall market conditions. A number of such stores in this area have jumped on the pick hype train and try to mark their picks up like crazy. When a store puts a barrel of Weller Full Proof out for sale at $200-250 and it disappears with people online calling it a good deal, what do you think they are going to do next time?

 

As noted on this board many, many times, try before you buy is a best practice, but I know that is not always possible. For control states like mine (Virginia), the state stores get picks but they are primarily (or all) distillery/distributor picks. There are restaurants and private groups doing picks, but groups aren't necessarily open to join and restaurants have their own pricing issues (and at least here, can't legally sell you a bottle, although it does happen).

 

Ultimately, my advice on picks is that relationships count. Those relationships may involve trial and error purchases, but that's how you will learn. Even in groups that you are committed to, not every pick will be a favorite; there is some taking the good with the bad. But I wouldn't be all that interested in building a relationship with a store/group that gouges. Stores need to make money and groups may need to cover some expenses (those crazy stickers aren't free), but these should be kept within reason. When and if the bubble pops, the gougers are going to be left high and dry because they don't have any real relationships. I hope they get stuck with barrels and barrels of Old Nonsense four year old finished in an old oil drum.

Great post.

With few exceptions,  if I can't try it, I will not buy it.

Funny you should mention Virginia. I tossed the dice and bought a  Virginia ABC  KC rye "pick" , when  visiting family down there.  I was very pleasantly surprised. So much so, that I bought another on the way back. 

 

[Jazz June]

On 9/28/2022 at 9:06 PM, Skinsfan1311 said:

Great post.

With few exceptions,  if I can't try it, I will not buy it.

Funny you should mention Virginia. I tossed the dice and bought a  Virginia ABC  KC rye "pick" , when  visiting family down there.  I was very pleasantly surprised. So much so, that I bought another on the way back. 

 

 

At least some of the Virginia Four Roses picks are quite good. Distillery/distributor picks are less "cool," but, at the end of the day, the distillery shouldn't be sending out sub-par barrels in its barrel pick program, regardless of who picked them. Similarly, single barrel products are typically sold at a premium price, so they should be selected with some care as well. Recently, I participated in a discussion and was questioned as to whether I would buy a "shelf" Russell's Reserve SiB. I unequivocally responded yes because in my experience Wild Turkey typically puts great whiskey in those bottles. As a whiskey dork, I do miss the additional barrel information that the pick label has, but the bourbon is still great.

 

As a data point in the opposite direction, I really like the Sazerac Co. and the Buffalo Trace distillery, but I'm disenchanted with their stewardship of their pick program the last few years. Their brands sell out without any additional help, so maybe they have gotten lackadaisical about it or maybe good barrels are being diverted elsewhere, but a large majority of the Buffalo Trace distilled picks I have had in the last few years were similar or worse than the batched versions or shelf single barrels. One group was told that the barrels for Buffalo Trace brand picks are in the 5 to 7 year age range. Age is not the end all be all, but I'd hope for a few more years on those barrels. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of Blanton's picks are 5 years old and people lose their shit for those.

 

And finally, to your post (I like to get my words in with each post ), I purchased a KC rye pick from VA ABC a few years ago and found it to be pretty blah, but I'm not the biggest KC rye fan to begin with. The only KC rye I have really enjoyed were the two cask strength releases. I do have a KC rye pick from a group I'm in that I have yet to crack, so maybe that will change my mind.

[fosmith]

6 minutes ago, Jazz June said:

I purchased a KC rye pick from VA ABC a few years ago and found it to be pretty blah, but I'm not the biggest KC rye fan to begin with. The only KC rye I have really enjoyed were the two cask strength releases. I do have a KC rye pick from a group I'm in that I have yet to crack, so maybe that will change my mind.

I've had one KC rye pick that was very good and another that was outstanding.  Single barrels... 

[Skinsfan1311]

2 hours ago, Jazz June said:

 

 

And finally, to your post (I like to get my words in with each post ), I purchased a KC rye pick from VA ABC a few years ago and found it to be pretty blah, but I'm not the biggest KC rye fan to begin with. The only KC rye I have really enjoyed were the two cask strength releases. I do have a KC rye pick from a group I'm in that I have yet to crack, so maybe that will change my mind.

If you're not a KC rye fan to begin with, it's unlikely that you'll be impressed by any of the picks.  It's funny that you mention the KC rye cask strength as the ones that you really enjoyed.  I bought one, years ago, and was underwhelmed though,  admittedly,  it shined in Old Fashioneds and Manhattan's,  (go figure)

[PowderKeg]

The LS I frequent the most has quite a few PS offerings stacked up at substantially more $$ than any standard shelf version or "AR Exclusive" marked ones - which I have no idea who if anyone selected those or if the distributor just pops those stickers on.  I'll glance over their multiple PS labels every trip in to see if something new has shown up, but with so much other great non-PS options on their shelves at avg to better prices in the area, why pay a large premium for their personal/preferred choice from a few distiller-selected samples?  For example, I've yet to be disappointed by any SW:UC/UF bottle I've brought home, so why take a chance on any other PS option at $65+ (and often $80+) when that SW is pretty easily found around here at $65-70?  I like giving them business because they'll periodically scatter LE's around the shelves at MSRP (which I've scored a couple EC Toasted and Larceny BPs the past few months and left other LEs for others to discover), but if no interesting LEs are present I'll bring another standard bottle back instead.

[fosmith]

First time I can remember seeing this - a store pick priced below the standard offering.  Not sure how much I trust Safeway to pick a great barrel but I couldn't resist so it came home with me today.  ~9.5 years old...

[PaulO]

That there is a pretty safe bet.  I've had numerous KCSB over the years.  Most were from grocery stores with no extra information.  A few had a tag with the store name and selected by Fred Noe.  Current ones seem to have store name on small lower label.

Bottom line is, I was never sorry.  They were all good.