BOTM 07/23 Eagle Rare 10yr

[fishnbowljoe]

15 minutes ago, StarSurfer55 said:

I picked up an ER10 on my visit to the BT distillery this Summer. Always one of my favorites.  You are correct in that it is in the BT wheelhouse. I always tell people if they want to know what BT would taste like if aged longer, they should try ER10.  

Xactly!

[PaulO]

16 hours ago, StarSurfer55 said:

I picked up an ER10 on my visit to the BT distillery this Summer. Always one of my favorites.  You are correct in that it is in the BT wheelhouse. I always tell people if they want to know what BT would taste like if aged longer, they should try ER10.  

And if they want to know what BT would taste like aged shorter, they should try Benchmark.  

[fosmith]

I picked up an ER 10 the other day at my local Safeway for $32.30 after six bottle mix and match discount.  There was just one bottle in the locked cabinet.  First one I've seen on the shelf in over a year. 

[Pub Crawler]

It's been about a month but I was able to grab an ER from my local Publix for $35 to $40. Still unopened at this point.

 

Cheers,

[smokinjoe]

9 hours ago, Pub Crawler said:

It's been about a month but I was able to grab an ER from my local Publix for $35 to $40. Still unopened at this point.

 

Cheers,

Nice.  One of the bright spots of 2023 has been the reappearance of ER10 to multiple shelves in my area at good pricing.  Though, not at Publix, as grocery stores in GA cannot sell likkra.  Only beer, wine, and lower proof things.  

[Tiger86]

Just for fun, I did a blind with the 5 BT distillery bottles I currently have on the shelf. They came in the following order:

1- EH Taylor SmB

2- ER 10 yr

3- BT

4- Blantons

5- WSR

 

surprised that standard BT beat the other 2 on this particular night…

[Richnimrod]

9 hours ago, Tiger86 said:

Just for fun, I did a blind with the 5 BT distillery bottles I currently have on the shelf. They came in the following order:

1- EH Taylor SmB

2- ER 10 yr

3- BT

4- Blantons

5- WSR

 

surprised that standard BT beat the other 2 on this particular night…

Key phrase here: 'this particular night', eh?   For my taste buddies, it can be more about when I'm tasting (I think) than what I'm tasting.    That doesn't mean there aren't reliable pours that satisfy most of the time.     Fun ain't it?

[Kepler]

15 hours ago, Tiger86 said:

Just for fun, I did a blind with the 5 BT distillery bottles I currently have on the shelf. They came in the following order:

1- EH Taylor SmB

2- ER 10 yr

3- BT

4- Blantons

5- WSR

 

surprised that standard BT beat the other 2 on this particular night…

 

Not having done a blind with those, I would predict mine would normally be similar order but with BT and ER10 flipped.  Probably for me something like EHT, BT, Blanton's (depending on barrel), ER10, WSR. 

[Jazzhead]

On the rare occasions I've seen it,  I've enjoyed ER10.   It's an easy drinker and is a good option at its proof point.

 

My major issue with it ER is that I have no particular interest in patronizing BT and it's products.  I resent BT for creating the artificial shortage of its brands,  and think they treat their potential customers as easy,  desperate marks.   If I want the BT flavor profile,  I'd rather give my money to A. Smith Bowman.

[Anwalt]

5 hours ago, Jazzhead said:

On the rare occasions I've seen it,  I've enjoyed ER10.   It's an easy drinker and is a good option at its proof point.

 

My major issue with it ER is that I have no particular interest in patronizing BT and it's products.  I resent BT for creating the artificial shortage of its brands,  and think they treat their potential customers as easy,  desperate marks.   If I want the BT flavor profile,  I'd rather give my money to A. Smith Bowman.

 

I'm gonna respectfully beg to differ. 

 

They price well. It's everyone else who drives up the price. Unlike other distillers, they have not pocketed the money that would come from moving their MSRP closer to FMV. And they are clearly increasing supply, which is driving down FMV/Secondary. 

 

They charge reasonable prices at their level. It's others who drive up the prices at retail or post-retail.

 

I also find no fault with their distribution. Supply is finite. They reward those who sell a bunch of other stuff. I do not have a problem with that. Indeed, it makes sense to me.

 

JM(NS)HO, perhaps I am mistaken or missing something.

[fishnbowljoe]

5 hours ago, Jazzhead said:

On the rare occasions I've seen it,  I've enjoyed ER10.   It's an easy drinker and is a good option at its proof point.

 

My major issue with it ER is that I have no particular interest in patronizing BT and it's products.  I resent BT for creating the artificial shortage of its brands,  and think they treat their potential customers as easy,  desperate marks.   If I want the BT flavor profile,  I'd rather give my money to A. Smith Bowman.

Sazerac/BT has not created an artificial shortage of their products. That, I can pretty much guarantee.  What has had  an effect over the last number of years is more “pieces of the pie” being shared with numerous other entities. Bars and restaurants want in on more and more of the action. Distributors (at least in our area) have taken note. They’ve seemed to care about, and cater more to their off premise accounts than they do about liquor stores. They also hold some stores hostage hostage. You can get a case or two of something, but only if you buy 10 cases of  something else. That something else is usually products that are a little harder to sell. Distributors here also have a negative effect in another way.  A store can order a case of something limited. They’ ll get it, but ony two or three bottles at a time over a month or more. That way they don’t have to give the store a case discount. Hence stores can’t pass on the savings to us consumers. No way is any of this the fault of Sazerac/BT.

[Kepler]

1 hour ago, fishnbowljoe said:

Sazerac/BT has not created an artificial shortage of their products. That, I can pretty much guarantee.  What has had  an effect over the last number of years is more “pieces of the pie” being shared with numerous other entities. Bars and restaurants want in on more and more of the action. Distributors (at least in our area) have taken note. They’ve seemed to care about, and cater more to their off premise accounts than they do about liquor stores. They also hold some stores hostage hostage. You can get a case or two of something, but only if you buy 10 cases of  something else. That something else is usually products that are a little harder to sell. Distributors here also have a negative effect in another way.  A store can order a case of something limited. They’ ll get it, but ony two or three bottles at a time over a month or more. That way they don’t have to give the store a case discount. Hence stores can’t pass on the savings to us consumers. No way is any of this the fault of Sazerac/BT.

 

I don't understand how you could guarantee something like that.

 

I think it's pretty obvious that they create artificial shortages of Thomas H. Handy, a 6 year old barrel proof rye.  I think OWA is also surely under-packaged compared to their stocks of the wheated product they have on hand.  Hard to say about the others.  The fact that many markets (states) see so little of stuff like BT and WSR is pretty damning evidence to me.

 

 

 

[fishnbowljoe]

2 hours ago, Kepler said:

 

I don't understand how you could guarantee something like that.

 

I think it's pretty obvious that they create artificial shortages of Thomas H. Handy, a 6 year old barrel proof rye.  I think OWA is also surely under-packaged compared to their stocks of the wheated product they have on hand.  Hard to say about the others.  The fact that many markets (states) see so little of stuff like BT and WSR is pretty damning evidence to me.

 

 

 

As far as  markets are concerned, the three tier liquor distribution system leaves something to be desired. IMHO, it is sorely lacking. I think most folks would agree with that. The system itself leads to skullduggery. Case in point is a manager of a Meijer or several Meijer stores in the Chicago area. He sold their entire Pappy and BTAC allotment to one individual to share with his group and/or to sell for a profit. It was mentioned here. The CEO of Sazerac/BT is Mark Brown. I contacted him about this. I sent him an email with pictures and explained what I surmised was going on. He thanked me, and said they were already aware, and action was being taken.

FWIW, I have a pretty good relationship with Sazerac/BT CEO Mark Brown. For a number of years, I’ve touched base with him on a semi-regular basis. I’ve also had the pleasure of meeting him a couple of times. Once was at the end of a staff meeting of the management team at BT. Myself and a few others had the pleasure of interacting with the entire team, with the exception of Harlan Wheatly. They even took the time to give us a brief, but very nice and informative presentation. I trust the man, the company, and its practices. That probably isn’t good enough for a couple of folks here. So be it. 
 

 

[Jazzhead]

I appreciate your perspectives,  @Anwaltand @fishnbowljoe.     However,  the BT situation in Pennsylvania and New Jersey is ridiculous.   Here in Pennsy,  which ha a state store monopoly,  I see BT and ER10 maybe two or three times a year,  at regular price and limited to one bottle per customer.   Weller in any form is NEVER available,  not to mention any of their "allocated" brands.

 

BT is major national distiller - why can't it get any of even its standard brands into PA?  All the other legacy distillers are well represented here - why not BT?   The only BT brand I see in PA with any regularity is Sazerac rye (which is fine with me because it's my favorite BT product anyway!)

 

As for  New Jersey,   where private liquor stores big and small ensure a vast variety of bourbons and ryes,  BT products are also largely unavailable, and when they are the prices are jacked up or the stuff is doled out behind the counter to preferred customers.    Thankfully,  A. Smith Bowman products can be found in NJ at regular prices  and that's how I scratch my BT itch.   I also got lucky a couple of years ago and found some  BT Kosher Wheat Recipe,  which is as close as I've gotten to sniffing a Weller in at least six years. 

 

Now if this were some hip craft distiller with limited production,  or even the special allocated products of a legacy distiller (I've haven't seen a OF Birthday Bourbon in years),   I'd understand it.    But what's effectively missing in PA and NJ are the standard brands of one of the largest legacy distillers,  and, yeah, I resent it and believe that BT is ultimately to blame for the situation. 

 

Please note that I don't criticize the bourbon.  ER10 is tasty stuff,   and so is  EHTaylor small batch which is also no more than a fond and distant memory to me.   But when a national distiller either can't get its standard brands into a major market, or creates or tolerates the conditions where the stuff is subjected to outrageous markups,  then something's wrong.    I can get the full lines of Wild Turkey,  Old Forester and Beam products just about everywhere I look.  And that's who gets my business.       

Edited April 19 by Jazzhead

[Anwalt]

1 hour ago, Jazzhead said:

I appreciate your perspectives,  @Anwaltand @fishnbowljoe.   

Likewise. I appreciate the tone, the content, all of it. This is how people learn. "Conversation" seems to be a disappearing art. 

 

Now that you mention it, I am curious to know how & why BT distribution varies so much from state to state. A rumor I've never been able to verify: Ohio/OHLQ has a contract for Weller through 2030 made back when Nobody Wanted Bourbon. Then again, I'm curious as to why/how any "rare" or "allocated" whiskey is distributed, because the distribution patterns for all them seem to be non-uniform.

 

I do have a bias and it affects my judgment: If a State Agency is involved, there shall be F Up's and distortions. For example PA puts a lot of allocated stuff online and it disappears in 4 minutes because of bots. I considered having one made (it's not hard), but have simply had better things to do. PA knows about it. They don't care. That's not a BT issue. That's a "PA State Employees Whose Jobs Should Be Outsourced to Excel" issue.

 

You quite rightly compared a Control state to an Open state. For me Indiana is a paradigm of the latter. I never see BT allocated stuff there at MSRP. Indeed, I almost never see anything allocated at all, even non-BT, even at high mark-ups. And when I do see anything allocated, it usually is quite marked up. That, or I got lucky and stumbled into Kroger or some other chain in the right 90 seconds. It's also the best place in the country (with the possible exception of Costco's in CA, etc.) to buy fairly regular stuff at great prices (e.g., KC12, OE7 rye, 4R regular SiB, etc.). Indiana Bros - am I mistaken? But some of that "regular" stuff (notably KC12) is harder to find elsewhere. Why Jim Beam? Whhhyyyyy?

 

BT is not the only one with odd distribution patterns. I've made it a bit of a hobby to get the cheapest bottle, even if it only saves me $10 or so. It helps that I have friends, "friends", and clients all over the place. So I have (perhaps "had" as I am now calming down a bit) a pretty good feel for what sells for what where...or is even available. For example, I have found that JD SBBP rye is consistently & easily found in TX at $70. Way less so in most other places I visit, including TN. Color me confused! I haven't the faintest clue how state-by-state distribution decisions are made for any brand, much less BT. So maybe BT is Evil in its state-by-state distribution and I missed the memo. But in that case, I don't think they are alone.

 

In terms of mark-ups - I personally put that on the distributors/stores. But again, I don't blame them. Most of us ask the most we can get per hour of labor. Why would retailers be any different? FMV is FMV. Don't like it? Don't pay (which seems to be a pretty common approach by many here, which is totally fair). For example, I like Porsches. I just don't like them anywhere near as much as others who are willing to pay far more than I am. No skin off my back.

Someone else made a point, as to THH I think. That BT could make more and does not. That's an interesting thought. I do not know enough to respond to it.

Anyhoo, this is a pretty interesting discussion. I appreciate the various insights.

[Jazzhead]

@Anwalt  I don't disagree with what you say.   FMV is FMV,   and in places where the state doesn't have a monopoly, that means the price is set by individual stores and those who patronize them.    I patronize those stores,  and I choose to leave the marked-up BT products to others.   

 

But I don't "resent" those stores (probably a poor choice of words on my part).    That's because they have all sorts of great bourbons, ryes and scotches at "regular" - that is,  competitive - prices, and in New Jersey and other states like it (e.g.,  Maryland)  there's a plethora of choice.     But true competitive retail  pricing requires that everyone have access to the same supply.    In  NJ some stores stock BT products and mark 'em up,  but most don't stock them at all.    That sure smells to me like they have trouble getting BT products because the supply of BT products is constrained. 

 

So why is that?   Is it fair to blame BT,  or are they just the happy beneficiaries (together with the flippers)  of demand that outstrips supply?    While the full standard lines from every other legacy distiller get supplied in quantities sufficient to give everyone fair access at fair prices?

 

 

 

 

Edited April 19 by Jazzhead

[Anwalt]

2 hours ago, Jazzhead said:

@Anwalt  I don't disagree with what you say.   FMV is FMV,   and in places where the state doesn't have a monopoly, that means the price is set by individual stores and those who patronize them.    I patronize those stores,  and I choose to leave the marked-up BT products to others.   

 

But I don't "resent" those stores (probably a poor choice of words on my part).    That's because they have all sorts of great bourbons, ryes and scotches at "regular" - that is,  competitive - prices, and in New Jersey and other states like it (e.g.,  Maryland)  there's a plethora of choice.     But true competitive retail  pricing requires that everyone have access to the same supply.    In  NJ some stores stock BT products and mark 'em up,  but most don't stock them at all.    That sure smells to me like they have trouble getting BT products because the supply of BT products is constrained. 

 

So why is that?   Is it fair to blame BT,  or are they just the happy beneficiaries (together with the flippers)  of demand that outstrips supply?    While the full standard lines from every other legacy distiller get supplied in quantities sufficient to give everyone fair access at fair prices?

 

 

 

 

 

"So why is that". That's the question. I do not know which states get how much of what, or why. So there I cannot comment.

 

I would love to know if Ohio really gets "30% of Weller through 2030" based on a long-standing contract. That would explain a lot.

 

I have also heard (for what it's worth) that BT experiments with different markets to see what "works"...which is a pretty meaningless statement, all companies do that.

 

I have noticed more Blanton's and especially Weller & EHT out there. There's just no question. And it's reflected in secondary prices, consistently. There is clearly more supply of most low-to-mid-range BT products. Permanent? Post-Covid surge? Both? Dunno. That strikes me as the opposite of some sort of "withholding" and inconsistent with their expansion as well.

 

From their website:

 

"

The $1.2 billion expansion encompasses all operations at Buffalo Trace Distillery, starting with a new distribution center and bottling operation in 2015 and 2019. More recently, the Distillery added 14 new barrel warehouses, 12 additional fermenters, additional cookers, a new cooling system and tripled the size of its visitor center. In 2022, Buffalo Trace’s additional dry house, hammer mill, additional still house and wastewater treatment plant have been constructed and will be operational by the end of this year.

 

The newly constructed still house will begin operating in December 2022 and allows Buffalo Trace to double its production. The second still house is located adjacent to Buffalo Trace’s existing 1930s still house and contains a duplicate still of Buffalo Trace’s existing still, standing 40 feet tall and having the capacity of 60,000 gallons a day."

 

Seems like we are feeling the effects of some of that increase in capacity.

 

More supply of BTAC? Harder to tell. I have noticed secondary price drops on GTS & THH as well, haven't paid much attention to the others.

 

I do not see how BT benefits from selling more in, say, Ohio than NJ. They sell all they've got at their comparatively low prices. They are not the ones benefiting from the secondary pricing. Indeed, I'm rather surprised that they haven't raised MSRP similar to Michters. I don't think comparisons to other distillers are apples to apples. Right or wrong, there is more demand for BT than OF, JB, etc.

I think it comes down to how I started this response: Which states get how much & why. I have no answer to either question.

[PaulO]

On 4/19/2024 at 12:32 PM, Anwalt said:

Likewise. I appreciate the tone, the content, all of it. This is how people learn. "Conversation" seems to be a disappearing art. 

 

Now that you mention it, I am curious to know how & why BT distribution varies so much from state to state. A rumor I've never been able to verify: Ohio/OHLQ has a contract for Weller through 2030 made back when Nobody Wanted Bourbon. Then again, I'm curious as to why/how any "rare" or "allocated" whiskey is distributed, because the distribution patterns for all them seem to be non-uniform.

 

I do have a bias and it affects my judgment: If a State Agency is involved, there shall be F Up's and distortions. For example PA puts a lot of allocated stuff online and it disappears in 4 minutes because of bots. I considered having one made (it's not hard), but have simply had better things to do. PA knows about it. They don't care. That's not a BT issue. That's a "PA State Employees Whose Jobs Should Be Outsourced to Excel" issue.

 

You quite rightly compared a Control state to an Open state. For me Indiana is a paradigm of the latter. I never see BT allocated stuff there at MSRP. Indeed, I almost never see anything allocated at all, even non-BT, even at high mark-ups. And when I do see anything allocated, it usually is quite marked up. That, or I got lucky and stumbled into Kroger or some other chain in the right 90 seconds. It's also the best place in the country (with the possible exception of Costco's in CA, etc.) to buy fairly regular stuff at great prices (e.g., KC12, OE7 rye, 4R regular SiB, etc.). Indiana Bros - am I mistaken? But some of that "regular" stuff (notably KC12) is harder to find elsewhere. Why Jim Beam? Whhhyyyyy?

 

BT is not the only one with odd distribution patterns. I've made it a bit of a hobby to get the cheapest bottle, even if it only saves me $10 or so. It helps that I have friends, "friends", and clients all over the place. So I have (perhaps "had" as I am now calming down a bit) a pretty good feel for what sells for what where...or is even available. For example, I have found that JD SBBP rye is consistently & easily found in TX at $70. Way less so in most other places I visit, including TN. Color me confused! I haven't the faintest clue how state-by-state distribution decisions are made for any brand, much less BT. So maybe BT is Evil in its state-by-state distribution and I missed the memo. But in that case, I don't think they are alone.

 

In terms of mark-ups - I personally put that on the distributors/stores. But again, I don't blame them. Most of us ask the most we can get per hour of labor. Why would retailers be any different? FMV is FMV. Don't like it? Don't pay (which seems to be a pretty common approach by many here, which is totally fair). For example, I like Porsches. I just don't like them anywhere near as much as others who are willing to pay far more than I am. No skin off my back.

Someone else made a point, as to THH I think. That BT could make more and does not. That's an interesting thought. I do not know enough to respond to it.

Anyhoo, this is a pretty interesting discussion. I appreciate the various insights.

Your description of Indiana seems consistent with my observations here.

As far as BT products a person could just find on a shelf we have: Benchmark (the different versions), AA 80 proof, regular BT, and recently we've been seeing Saz Rye.

One step up the ladder from those (ER, EHT, Blanton's, etc.) and bottles go directly into a back room.  They may be put into a lottery, or offered to some preferred customer, or who knows.  Weller of any kind gets this same treatment, even WSR.

It used to not be like this.  A few years ago things started to change.  I guess that's when people went nuts.

 

 

[fishnbowljoe]

1 hour ago, PaulO said:

Your description of Indiana seems consistent with my observations here.

As far as BT products a person could just find on a shelf we have: Benchmark (the different versions), AA 80 proof, regular BT, and recently we've been seeing Saz Rye.

One step up the ladder from those (ER, EHT, Blanton's, etc.) and bottles go directly into a back room.  They may be put into a lottery, or offered to some preferred customer, or who knows.  Weller of any kind gets this same treatment, even WSR.

It used to not be like this.  A few years ago things started to change.  I guess that's when people went nuts.

 

 

Yep  @PaulO. Carbon copy here in northern Illinois. There are now only a couple of halfway decent stores here without having to drive too far. Most stores here anymore are tater stores. A number of them appear to be affiliated with a couple of different owners/entities. The last one I stopped in had a few decent items on the shelf, but the prices were at least double msrp. Funny, I just realized that most of the tater stores here have only been around the last 10-15 years or so. Coincidence?