How do we feel about the Stagg line on Ebay?

[TNbourbon]

I find it interesting -- and a bit alarming -- that the 2005 Spring Stagg bottling is suddenly appearing on Ebay in notable quantities, and selling at multiples of issue price.

How do we feel about that?

As one who has general access to the Stagg bottlings, I'm a bit leery of criticizing the sales too much, because it IS making them available to those who otherwise can't get them. But at what price?

Several things cross my mind:

1) Is it taking advantage of people to receive double or triple shelf price for a 4-month-old product that will be released in new form in just a few weeks? Or is it just wisely taking advantage of a seller's market?

2) How does Buffalo Trace feel about the apparent marketeering of speculators who have bought up Stagg bottles apparently for the purpose of turning a profit? And, will the apparent willingness of purchasers to pay as much as $200 for the current bottling force BT to increase its release price? Ken?

3) Is George T. Stagg bourbon worth $150-$200 a bottle?

4) If these prices continue, what are you going to do with yours -- drink, or sell?

[AVB]

There are enough places that mail order booze that if one were serious about getting Stagg or anything else, it could be done. Now if these were the first rendition of Stagg then I say let the sellers get what the market will allow. Just my 2¢.

[BourbonJoe]

If these prices continue, what are you going to do with yours -- drink, or sell?

[ripvanfan]

I will definitely be keeping mine. However, there are some single malt scotches I have thought about listing but have never done so. There is no bourbon made that I would sell on Ebay. Interesting topic.

[bobbyc]

It almost makes you wish they could drown us in it to insure a reasonable price.

Once it is bought it is your property so if you can fetch an exorbitant price for it, go for it.

If all this places upward pressure on the price from BT, and they did add a couple bucks this time around, I can't say at what point, but I would be dropping out, there's 3 bottles for someone else.

What is it worth? I guess what the market will bear. If I could get 200 for every botle I own perhaps I'd be tempted to sell, but then again I might view it as I do the AH Hirsch, Why sell it for 200 when it will be worth 400 later on.

[camduncan]

If these prices continue, what are you going to do with yours -- drink, or sell?

Personally, I'd never sell. I buy bourbon for the enjoyment of drinking, not to turn a profit.

If I was keen to make money selling alcohol, I'd have taken over my parents pub before they sold.

[BSS]

I'll probably go where I know 4 are still sitting in store and buy them for $42 a piece; then sell them. I have a case(3) of 2003s that I thought about selling. I traded Doug 2 05s and one 03 for a bottle of Hirsch 20. When I made the trade I felt I got the better end of the deal by a lot, now by the looks of it, I think Doug's about even.

[gr8erdane]

My problem with the whole eBay thing is that the rules state that the product must NO LONGER BE AVAILABLE. Not just in the market where you live, but anywhere if you go by the letter of the law. I look at buying a 50 dollar bottle and selling it for 200 as being the equivalent of ticket scalping at a sporting event. You have taken the time to aquire the goods and there are people out there who didn't and still want them and will pay you high prices because they were too lazy to go buy the tickets themselves. Supply and demand economics. My own personal code of ethics prevent me from participating in this as a seller or buyer. It's one thing for Randall's to jack up the price because he can let the bottle sit on the shelf until someone meets his price and it's idle money sitting there. It's another thing to dangle it out in front of people and tell them "buy it now before someone else does". I don't go to Randall's anymore for this price gouging, and I won't bid on currently available bottles on ebay no matter what they are.

When I find a rare bottling at a reasonable price, the first thing that goes through my mind is "Who on SB.com would really like this bottling?" That person usually gets that bottle for the value that I paid for it either in currency or in trade. I can't say that I have ever wondered how much that bottle would bring on eBay. If I ever do, I'm boxing up my bunker and sending it to the Gazebo with a farewell note.

[ratcheer]

When I was in Kentucky a few weeks ago, the store I shopped at had Stagg. Oh, boy, I thought. Then I saw the price ($70) and passed on it.

Maybe I made a mistake. But, that is $20 more than I have ever paid for any bourbon.

Tim

[bobbyc]

I think there's one thing that needs to be pointed out, and that is there are only 3 bottles available at present, it's just a blip on the screen. If BT tried this price point, there would be loads of product on the shelf when the next version came out, hence few orders.

[AVB]

If you are looking then Vintage Wine & Spirits have it for $45 plus shipping.

and Shopper's Vineyard has it for $60 plus shipping.

[dgonano]

All my Stagg is for drinking or trading with my fellow SB.com comrades.

[TNbourbon]

In fairness (and appreciation) to those who've responded, I'll answer my own questions:

1) I'm not too concerned about people who allow themselves to overpay for something -- it's their choice, and maybe they can afford it better than me. But,

2) It bothers me that there seem to be two or three sellers who put up a new bottle as soon as their current lot sells. These guys are speculators, pure and simple -- if they'd just leave it on the shelves, others could find it at a more reasonable price. That couldn't happen if the bottling were smaller, I'd guess -- there wouldn't be enough left for people who didn't plan to drink to speculate in.

3) No, not the current issue. That might be a reasonable price for the 2002, with both a smaller issue and three years since release. I'm with Bobby here -- I might be good for an occasional bottle at that price (after all, I have bought Pappy 23yo), but not a couple of 3-packs like I've been buying.

4) I've traded with folks here almost as many bottles as I have bunkered, which are several -- but I bought 'em to drink and share. If I wanted a commodity, the cost of a bottle of Stagg would buy shares of stock in lots of things.

[Rughi]

I just checked ebay for "stagg bourbon" and got 4 auctions: 3 for the 131.8 that I could get at least a dozen of on retail shelves within 3 miles of my house in the $45-55 range, and 1 bottle of the 130.9 "Kentucky" Stagg.

The 3 131.8s had 1 or 0 bids each for between $75 and $88 dollars. Frankly, I'm not sure there are any real bids, and there's no reason for members of this forum to go to strangers on ebay. These ebay bottles don't hold a legitimate premium in the marketplace to any except the uninformed (which do tend to hang out on ebay) because the initial retail source is still well stocked. I think it's all log-rolling on ebay, myself.

Another thought is that the ample supply of 131.8 (in some areas) may be what's needed to keep it as BT's "thank you" to enthusiasts rather than an investment game divorced from the sensual pleasure of drinking the bourbon. Intentional or not, BT has done a great service to enthusiasts and a great disservice to speculators with the volume of their release. Here's to another big release in September!

Roger

[Ken Weber]

Okay team, put on your marketing caps! I have something to sell that is of high quality, in great demand, and has a very small supply; what does the basic rule of supply and demand dictate that we do? If a 750ml bottle of Crown Royal sells for $25, what should a 17 year old, uncut/unfiltered bourbon sell for?

I was recently in London where I was approached by a gentleman from the Middle East. He wanted to buy all of the Stagg we produce, not for re-sell but for his own private collection. We explained that we did not have any that we could offer him. He told us that we did not understand his offer. He was willing to pay whatever we asked; money was not an issue.

Okay team, what should we do with the product and how much should we make? Any bean counter at almost any company would say the same thing, sell it to the gentleman at some crazy price and laugh all the way to the bank!

We chose to offer it to our distributors at an FOB that should return a shelf price of around $45. Could we make more, absolutely. Did we make the correct business decision; we think so. Will we take price increases? Well, let's see. The distributor can charge whatever they want to the retailer, who can sell it for whatever they want. Now lets say we make 25%, the distributor makes 50%, and the retailer chooses to make 100%, is it fair that as the producer we make less than anyone?

While we are doing this marketing exercise, compare the price of Maker's Mark to that of Weller 12 year old. They are about the same shelf price, yet one is 5 - 6 years old and the other is 12 - 14 years old. Paul Pacult has listed Weller 12 as a top 20 spirits brand, worldwide for the last couple of years. Should we not take a hefty price increase?

These are issues we deal with everyday. Our business model seems to have torn a page out of the Pappy Van Winkle statement,

We make fine bourbon

at a profit if we can

at a loss if we must

but always fine bourbon

With apologies to Pappy, our goal is likewise to produce the finest spirits we can and at a reasonable profit. If someone else wants to speculate and take advantage of the situation, there is little we can do about it.

Ken

[pepcycle]

IMHO, this is at best illegal, especially if consumption is involved. It also breaks the rules of E-Bay, since the product is still available in retail markets. This is essentially resale of liquor without license and intrastate to boot. Hang'm

[pepcycle]

Ken,

Tough choice. The business would require you to sell to Mr. Money Bags. I hope you don't make that choice, but isn't that what Four Roses does with Super Premium. We don't get any because someone is willing to pay a lot more for it somewhere else.

I don't have to like it.

BTW: Has anyone taken the time to report the Stagg issue to E-Bay as a violation. I don't think anybody there has a clue to the availability.

[AVB]

Well, if you are living in PA you can't get any leagally anymore. The state store no longer has any in stock and it isn't legal to buy across state lines. So while buying from ebay is technicly illegal it might be the only way for someone to get the product at this moment if they aren't too search savvy.

Just another point of view.

BTW: Has anyone taken the time to report the Stagg issue to E-Bay as a violation. I don't think anybody there has a clue to the availability.

[kbuzbee]

Great choice Ken (and one not every business would do, for sure)

I lift my glass to you!

Cheers,

Ken

PS - Now can you find a way to get some over the Ohio River?????

[clayton]

I won't be selling any of mine. It's worth far more to me for drinking than for selling.

[TNbourbon]

...BTW: Has anyone taken the time to report the Stagg issue to E-Bay as a violation. I don't think anybody there has a clue to the availability.

[TNbourbon]

Ken, that is exactly the kind of response I both hoped for and expected from you (and BT). And I'll continue to support folks who do business like you do. The thing that rankles me most about the current offerings is their assembly-line availability from the same 2-3 sources. I'd much rather you made that money (not at MY expense, of course ) than these folks taking advantage of the fact that folks like us have made Stagg popular and sought-after by giving it our collective 'seal of approval', so to speak. I'm tempted to offer a couple at low-ball "Buy It Now" prices just to break the aura. (Nah -- good idea, though .)

[halpap]

I also noticed the ebay offerings, although Randall's isn't much better imho. My main concern is that Stagg will get priced out of my range, because, like many on the board, I can't pay $100 a bottle even for really superior whiskey. I assumed that the buyer's of the ebay offerings are overseas (where Stagg is not available) and I suspect there are customs laws being violated.

[halpap]

One more thing, lest I forget. Kudos and thanks to Buffalo Trace for the quality and pricing of their products. They get over 80% of my bourbon dollars. It is well earned.

[BSS]

If I'm not mistaken, at least in Kentucky, it is illegal to sell any alcohol if you do not have a license. No matter what the purpose or availability is. I would even guess that you are breaking the law by trading full bottles. I’m not a lawyer, but I would think I’m right.

If there is an Ebay rule differentiating between the bottles still being available or not, that's a pure BS rule. Do you think Ebay does any research on availability? No. Also, what’s the definition of available? Seems like plenty of people find old bottles at stores all the time, does that mean the bottles are still “available� I would think any transaction on Ebay that involved alcohol from someone that didn’t have a license, is breaking the law.