How do we feel about the Stagg line on Ebay?

[angelshare]

1) Is it taking advantage of people to receive double or triple shelf price for a 4-month-old product that will be released in new form in just a few weeks? Or is it just wisely taking advantage of a seller's market?

[NorCalBoozer]

...BTW: Has anyone taken the time to report the Stagg issue to E-Bay as a violation. I don't think anybody there has a clue to the availability.

Yes, someone has.

i would rather allow all alcohol sales then to have more rules or enforcement. Capitalism has a bright and dark side, but i would rather ere on less regulation.

[doubleblank]

This "Stagg" thing is somewhat analagous to the reselling of "cult" wines from California......but with several differences. Many low volume/highly desireable wines are sold 100% to either people on the "list" or to restaurants. Some people will receive their allocation and then resell a portion to a wine retailer in CA who then marks it up signficantly......the seller usually gets enough from the sale that he drinks the rest of the bottles for free. All because he's on a winery's list. Is this a reward for being an early supportor of the winery before it became a "cult" favorite? Perhaps. I don't know the legality of this practice but it is widespread in CA.....because I regularly see wines for sale which are technically unavailable through the retail trade. What I do know is that this makes some wines that would otherwise be completely unavailable to me here in Texas available ...... if I want to part with the dinero.

This Stagg/Ebay phenomenon is different in that there are thousands of cases released through the retail trade throughout the US. The perception to many is that Stagg must be a low volume, impossible product to find. Yeah, it can be hard to find.....but if you work at it, you can get some. It's still on the shelf here in Houston ...... I bought two today for $43.99 each. As many have said, some of these bidders may be overseas and the only "easy" way to acquire the Stagg is on Ebay. But the informed bourbon lover doesn't have to go to Ebay for his Stagg period. As Tim said, if 20 of us offered ours up at once, the price will drop like a rock.

The answer to Tim's question(s)....No it doesn't bother me that Stagg is showing up on Ebay. No, I won't be a buyer or seller either. And I don't want any authorities wasting my tax dollars chasing these "criminals" selling alcohol in an adult-to-adult transaction.

Randy

[halpap]

I don't disagree with what you said, and I certainly would prefer fewer restrictions on alcohol sales (there are many items that are available in Kentucky that I would love to try but can't get shipped). What offends me is when people sell items that are "Long out of production" "Not available for sale at any retail outlet" when neither statement is true. It isn't only Stagg that this happens to. It happens with many scotches as well and I think the sellers don't care whether what they say is true.

[Dave_in_Canada]

You folks have to realize that while it is accessible to many of you that live in the U.S. (especially KY and other mid states), some of us have a terribly difficult time acquiring most bourbons, let alone GTS. Several reasons include: costly prohibitive import duties, taxes and laws; and an almost complete lack of ANY bourbon selection locally.

You'd have to ask the ebay buyers directly, but I'd guess many of them are happy to have any source at all, price would appear to be irrelevant.

1) Apparently GTS is a sellers market. Buyers on Ebay are not taken advantage of unless the shipping is extreme, or the product is false.

2) I would image (I can't say here) that GTS is garnering alot of marketing hype for Buffalo Trace and in fact improves sales of their other product.

3) Yes GTS is worth $150 if you consider how much better the whiskey is that scotches in that price range.

4) I have considered selling mine but won't because even at over $100 a bottle, I can not replace it for that.

[JamesH007]

This is my first post, and an appropriate one to start with as I was introduced to this great community in the process of selling a bottle of my GTS on ebay. I bought a few bottles to give as gifts and for private stock when the holidays come around; however after seeing how much the bottles are going for I decided to part with a few so that I could reinvest in some other bourbons I have been wanting to try (AH Hirsch 16/20, Pappy 23 and the DM 18/20....and now some of the Black Maple Hill). I don’t think there is anything wrong with a free market transaction where 2 private individuals agree on a price for a commodity. In fact I wish I saw more of the Bourbons I would like to find on ebay or in the open market so that I could make an offer on them. The GTS is great bourbon and worth every bit of what someone is willing to pay for it.

[gr8erdane]

There is the main point for me, eBay sellers don't seem to be bound by truth in advertising laws that Buffalo Trace and the distilleries are held to. I've never written anything to eBay about this issue but I did write to a seller once.

One of the first full bottlings I ever saw on eBay was a bottle of Old Whiskey River put up by a "gentleman" in Minnesota who described it as a limited collectors item, no longer produced, with a PERSONALLY AUTOGRAPHED guitar pick by Willie Nelson. Being public minded I dropped the seller a note informing him that HH still makes OWR in good quantity, and that the pick was a printed copy. I basically got a reply that this was the only bottle he had ever seen in HIS HOMETOWN (and therefore it MUST be no longer made) and proceeded to suggest that I could take a bottle of OWR and start a new bourbon bunker in a place that I seriously doubt I could fit a half pint let alone a 750.

So much for my civic duty.

[jsgorman]

While I haven't sold a bottle of Stagg on eBay, I have sold a bottle of Hirsch 20YO and got a pretty good price from someone that had absolutely no other option to acquire the spirit. He was a very knowledgeable buyer and had full knowledge of what he was buying. At the end of the transaction, I had a bit more money to buy other stuff (including Stagg) and he had a bottle of a impossible to find Bourbon. We both completed the transaction satisfied.

Prior to posting the bottle on eBay, I let it be known that I would be willing to sell a couple of bottles on this site. I ended up selling one bottle to a regular poster for about $25 cheaper than I ended up selling the second bottle on eBay. But since since this is more a community than a marketplace, I don't miss the extra $25.

If transactions are transparant -- seller and buyer are fully aware of all the points of the transaction -- I don't have a problem with people making money as an intermediary. Nobody is going to get rich on selling a few bottles on eBay and frankly nobody is going to get hurt either.

[AVB]

As the buyer in the above transaction I had no problem paying the"market price". It's not like I can run down to the store and find another Hirsch 20. Now if only someone will sell me a blue wax 16.

Sometimes you can even get a good deal on ebay if you look long and hard enough.

[musher]

I basically got a reply that this was the only bottle he had ever seen in HIS HOMETOWN (and therefore it MUST be no longer made) and proceeded to suggest that I could take a bottle of OWR and start a new bourbon bunker in a place that I seriously doubt I could fit a half pint let alone a 750.

Ya gotta love that Minnesota Nice, eh?!

[Ken Weber]

I believe there is a loophole in the law regarding the re-selling of distilled spirits, BUT DON'T HOLD ME TO THIS. If I puchase a bottle of bourbon in Kentucky, I have already paid the FET and all state and local taxes. If I re-sell it to you, it is essentially tax-paid whiskey. That is, taxes have been paid on the alcohol. The big issue is then whether the appicable state sells taxes are due.

BTD can not sell directly to a consumer because of the three-tier structure, however, I as a private citizen, who has already paid the taxes, MAY be able to sell as I wish. Again, please consult competent legal counsel before I get both of us thrown into the local lock-up. Come to think of it, since it is a felony in Kentucky, we might be sharing a cell at the federal penitentiary!

Ken

[NorCalBoozer]

but doesn't BTD and other distilleries sell barrels of bourbon directly to private consumers???

BTD can not sell directly to a consumer because of the three-tier structure, however, I as a private citizen, who has already paid the taxes, MAY be able to sell as I wish.

Ken

[jeff]

but doesn't BTD and other distilleries sell barrels of bourbon directly to private consumers???

Nope. BTD sells directly to a distributor. When individuals purchase a barrel, they must coordinate the purchase through the distributor to a particular retailer and purchase from them. Not terribly difficult, just a few phone calls.

[pepcycle]

I know we've beaten this topic to death, but how do think the market will be affected if $100 Stagg sells like hot cakes on E-bay. That's right. The bottles you see on the shelf in your local store will be pre-sold to "Scalpers", for lack of a better term. Pretty soon, Stagg will be like concert and NASCAR tickets. You'll only be able to get them throught the secondary, inflated market. I don't look forward to that outcome.

[NorCalBoozer]

well, is it fair that a distributor would get more Stagg because they simply sell more of the distilleries other products, possibly limiting avaliability to a certain region??

and once the product leaves the custody of one principle to another, that new principle is going to have some power as to how, where, when and at what price it is distributed, especially in regards to low production items that are highly sought after.

Overall i think ebay is a good thing. It allows free-er sale of products that may otherwise not be availiable.

I have confidence in capitalism. People throughout history have taken advantage of speculation for monetary gain.

Would I go out and buy as much Stagg as I can b/c I want to make a profit? no *BUT* i do want to get as much as possible b/c it is one of my favorite bourbons and being in my 30's, when I know I like an '05 Stagg, I want to be able to get as much as possible to enjoy throughout the rest of my lifetime. I'd like to be able to pop an 05 Stagg in 10 years or 20 years or 30, etc.

I think one of the best things to do is have a GREAT relationship with your local liquor store owner. When you buy from them, consistently spend $$$ in their store, they are going to want to reward you with getting you a rare item.

The fact is, Stagg is pretty avaliable, and for those who can't get it, it's most likely b/c their state won't allow internet alcohol sales. If they did they could buy Stagg '05 right now for $46-$50. I bet some or most of these Stagg's on Ebay are going to restricted states.

I believe the state restrictions on sales of alochol is the bigger problem that people speculating on ebay.

I know we've beaten this topic to death, but how do think the market will be affected if $100 Stagg sells like hot cakes on E-bay. That's right. The bottles you see on the shelf in your local store will be pre-sold to "Scalpers", for lack of a better term. Pretty soon, Stagg will be like concert and NASCAR tickets. You'll only be able to get them throught the secondary, inflated market. I don't look forward to that outcome.

[TNbourbon]

...The fact is, Stagg is pretty avaliable, and for those who can't get it, it's most likely b/c their state won't allow internet alcohol sales...

Well, yeah -- but that's a pretty big fact. Only 14 so-called 'reciprocal' states allow more-or-less unrestricted wine/liquor sales among themselves. That means there are 36 states and a couple of territories where your only supplier of Stagg is your local distributor/retailer combo. Should we suggest that Buffalo Trace only supply Stagg directly to those 36 states, leaving Californians and others to negotiate the 'free market'?

I fear Ed is thinking in the right direction. Alas, I'm in one of those states where it's a felony (yeah -- a FELONY) to take advantage of it by selling my Stagg stash to you.

[NorCalBoozer]

I am not sure I am following you...

I don't think all the Stagg will get bought by Dr. Evil and hid in his lair, then sold one bottle at a time on ebay.

...The fact is, Stagg is pretty avaliable, and for those who can't get it, it's most likely b/c their state won't allow internet alcohol sales...

Well, yeah -- but that's a pretty big fact. Only 14 so-called 'reciprocal' states allow more-or-less unrestricted wine/liquor sales among themselves. That means there are 36 states and a couple of territories where your only supplier of Stagg is your local distributor/retailer combo. Should we suggest that Buffalo Trace only supply Stagg directly to those 36 states, leaving Californians and others to negotiate the 'free market'?

I fear Ed is thinking in the right direction. Alas, I'm in one of those states where it's a felony (yeah -- a FELONY) to take advantage of it by selling my Stagg stash to you.

[CrispyCritter]

The bottles you see on the shelf in your local store will be pre-sold to "Scalpers", for lack of a better term. Pretty soon, Stagg will be like concert and NASCAR tickets. You'll only be able to get them throught the secondary, inflated market. I don't look forward to that outcome.

I have profoundly mixed feelings about people "ebaying" bottles of Stagg (especially Spring '05 bottles). I'm lucky enough to live in an area where Stagg is fairly easy to find, but a lot of others aren't so lucky. Yet, I don't like the idea of "scalpers" driving up prices for something, either. That being said, next time a stack of Stagg three-packs shows up at Binny's, one of them is mine - for storing and eventually drinking, not for selling!

IMO, states that use the "well, it might end up in the hands of an underage drinker" excuse to forbid out-of-state shipments are full of horse****. The kids are going to find someone who can buy a keg of cheap beer instead of ordering an expensive bottle of whiskey by mail that will end up being shipped "adult signature required." Indeed, the kids wouldn't have a clue about real bourbon - they'd think that Southern Comfort is whiskey, and if they did get a bottle of Stagg, they'd probably be mixing it with Pepsi.

Back in my own misspent youth many years ago, it was easier to score some "herbal" refreshment :+)=| than it was to get beer. Now, of course, I can walk into [insert liquor store here] and they don't even bother to card me. I guess I'm getting old.

[gr8erdane]

You all might laugh at Ed's prospect, but a few years back I had a roommate that had a booth in a flea market where he sold HotWheels cars. He would go to WalMarts in the area at 3am where he would be the first there when the toy department opened a new box of HotWheels just to get the single rare car from each box and then sell them at his booth. Because so many people got into this practice, the secondary market was the only place a collector could find them and he had to pay premiums for them. Several times my roommate would tell me that he had to practically fight for "his stores" with others that tried to get there before him. People even took the cars out of his shopping cart when he wasn't looking. I always just shook my head, but there are people out there who see dollar signs and totally lose control.

Anyone who sees that they can buy a 45 dollar bottle of bourbon and sell it in a couple of days for double or more profit will scour the liquor stores and buy all they can find and even have the stores reserve their orders for them. You can't blame the stores for wanting a quick return for their investment.

Hopefully though this won't happen and we'll all get enough Stagg to satisfy our needs (as though there ever is enough). One to taste and one to save for a rainy day in 2010 will do me just fine.

[bobbyc]

One to taste and one to save for a rainy day in 2010 will do me just fine.

In that case, I'm all set until 2215 or so............

[NorCalBoozer]

wait a minute.....isn't this what a lot of people do on this site?? go to liquor stores and buy up all the old and rare stock as much as they can usually find???? Then post pictures of all the great stuff they got at some really good price???

You are using you knowledge of bourbon to buy items that have not only a great intrinsic value to you as a bourbon lover, but also usually a greater monetary value than anyone else would know.

I can remember seeing lots of pictures of people here with 10's of bottles of Stagg. DOesn't that person drive up the cost as much as an ebay "scalper"????? lets see....if someone has 30 bottles of a 3000 bottle run of Stagg, thats 1%. I would bet that the posters here own a larger overall percentage of the Stagg market than anyone else in the world.

I think there is a tendency for some to think that because someone buys bourbon for the "love" of it, somehow has more of a right than someone else. While I wouldn't like it if some yoo hoo bought up all the Stagg or whatever bourbon I liked, I'm not going to sit here and say someone in America doesn't have to right to do just that.

So how is a Stagg "scalper" really any different??? He has gained a knowledge that Stagg sells for a good price and that he is not going to lose $$ on it.

Do I care that Doug or others are up in the bay area hauling in tons of old bourbons?? Heck no. They are spending resources (time, gas, $$$) and aquired knowledge to do so. Thusly, they are rewarded for their efforts.

A Stagg "scalper" knows, just as you or I do, that Stagg is the TOP of bourbon quality and it sells at a very unbelievable price....

You all might laugh at Ed's prospect, but a few years back I had a roommate that had a booth in a flea market where he sold HotWheels cars. He would go to WalMarts in the area at 3am where he would be the first there when the toy department opened a new box of HotWheels just to get the single rare car from each box and then sell them at his booth. Because so many people got into this practice, the secondary market was the only place a collector could find them and he had to pay premiums for them. Several times my roommate would tell me that he had to practically fight for "his stores" with others that tried to get there before him. People even took the cars out of his shopping cart when he wasn't looking. I always just shook my head, but there are people out there who see dollar signs and totally lose control.

Anyone who sees that they can buy a 45 dollar bottle of bourbon and sell it in a couple of days for double or more profit will scour the liquor stores and buy all they can find and even have the stores reserve their orders for them. You can't blame the stores for wanting a quick return for their investment.

Hopefully though this won't happen and we'll all get enough Stagg to satisfy our needs (as though there ever is enough). One to taste and one to save for a rainy day in 2010 will do me just fine.

[gr8erdane]

Hmmm, and all I thought I was saying with my little illustration was that it could happen similarly, how it might, and that I hope it won't. Honestly, this wasn't an attack on peoples rights to participate in free enterprise or that I have any more right to buy a bottle than a "scalper" does. It was simply an anecdote.

[chasking]

As people have noted, it is glaringly illegal to sell bottles of booze on eBay. A relatively small amount of it is countenanced on the theory that the bottle is being sold as a collectible to someone who will not open it, i.e., the value of the thing being sold is the bottle, not the whiskey. And in some cases, particularly collectible decanters, this may even be true.

If, however, people begin to sell too many full bottles of bourbon, particularly of still-available-at-some-liquor-stores bourbons like Stagg, as sure as the sun rises in the east the Authorities will lean on eBay, which will quickly ban all sales of booze, collectible container or otherwise.

However, that certainly will not stop anybody who can turn a 100% or more profit with no effort buying Stagg at the local store and selling it on eBay while he or she still can. So, if you thought you might want to try that scheme, do it quickly, before eBay bans the practice! It will be too bad, though, because that would also dry up a source of rare old bourbons that crop up from time to time.

I suppose one way to preserve that market would be to report all auctions of relatively recent bourbons like Stagg to eBay as violative of their policy; they will probably cancel them, and after a while the sellers will go away if that outlet is closed to them.

A part of me is saying, however, that Stagg at least is indeed a true collectible...I wonder how many buyers are motivated by that?

[TNbourbon]

wait a minute.....isn't this what a lot of people do on this site?? go to liquor stores and buy up all the old and rare stock as much as they can usually find????

Well, no -- and yes. I've never bought a bottle of bourbon with the intent of making a profit. When I found 4 Hirsch 20s last December, I sold and/or traded 3 of them to others here for the value I paid, which was less than half what they'd sold for just before that on Ebay. I didn't profit off anybody here.

As for the old/rare stock -- well, yeah, I buy it after everyone that has come before me (in the case of old stock, for, maybe, the last 30 years) has had their crack at it. Then you know what I do with it? I drink it, or share it with others. And if I ever do sell it or trade it with someone here, the basis will be what I paid -- as with the Hirsch above -- not its current Ebay value.

In short, I think the only folks who need to be in bourbon for the money are the distilleries, distributors and retailers.

[NorCalBoozer]

I think I'll go home and uncork an '05 Stagg. You can thank me later for increasing the value of your currently uncorked stock by decreasing the avaliability of Stagg by 1 bottle!

Tim, i have no doubt you are a stand up guy and most here are. I just don't worry too much about some chumps buying and selling 10 bottles of Stagg on ebay. I don't think it will have too great an effect overall. It has been a lively and interesting discussion.