barrel programs...can I buy and age my own barrel?

[NorCalBoozer]

i know it's possible to "buy" a barrel from a distiller and then they store it and bottle it when the time comes.

my question is...is it possible to buy a barrel and age it myself?

[JeffRenner]

i know it's possible to "buy" a barrel from a distiller and then they store it and bottle it when the time comes.

my question is...is it possible to buy a barrel and age it myself?

I don't think so. I believe the largest container that may be sold is 1.75 liters.

Jeff

[kbuzbee]

I agree with Jeff. I read somewhere (maybe in Chucks book??) it is part of the three tier system implimented after prohibition that everything has to be in bottles. Of course..... You can ALSO buy the empty barrel and dump all the bottles back into it to continue aging.... Complicated but doable. Make sure you save the bottles I think it was on the Buffalo Trace tour they mentioned doing this.... They said the barrel is very reasonable, $20 or so??

Ken

[cowdery]

The typical "buy a barrel" program is what several people here have done. The distillery selects a few mature barrels, you taste them, pick the one you like, and the distillery bottles it up for you. Several distilleries will do this.

Commercially, some distilleries do, in fact, sell new made whiskey to a customer and then age it for them, although this isn't done for consumers. Part of the issue is, why would you want to? Since you likely would only own one barrel, you would be taking a big chance in terms of how that barrel would age.

Now if you are asking, can a buy a newly-entered barrel, take it home and age it in my basement (as was common among the wealthy in the 19th century) the answer is no, it's against the law. Unless you have the appropriate license, you cannot buy alcohol in any container larger than 1.75 liters.

[kbuzbee]

Chuck, do you know if Wild Turkey does this??

Thanks!

Ken

[NorCalBoozer]

the reason for my post, was that knowing how much the aging and weather has to do with flavor, I was interesting in maybe setting up some aging in my locale. I was interesting in knowing how my local weather trends would affect the bourbon. Would it be good? bad? different?

Of course I probably wouldn't want standard size barrels. Way too much bourbon. But what if I could make 1.75 L barrels (or somewhat larger) and then fill them with a young bourbon and age it at my house? that might be cool. Has anyone done this?

The typical "buy a barrel" program is what several people here have done. The distillery selects a few mature barrels, you taste them, pick the one you like, and the distillery bottles it up for you. Several distilleries will do this.

Commercially, some distilleries do, in fact, sell new made whiskey to a customer and then age it for them, although this isn't done for consumers. Part of the issue is, why would you want to? Since you likely would only own one barrel, you would be taking a big chance in terms of how that barrel would age.

Now if you are asking, can a buy a newly-entered barrel, take it home and age it in my basement (as was common among the wealthy in the 19th century) the answer is no, it's against the law. Unless you have the appropriate license, you cannot buy alcohol in any container larger than 1.75 liters.

[barturtle]

A 1.75L barrel would age extremely fast and that might not be desireable--I think it would anyway, due to a high surface-to-volume ratio. Would probably be either very woody or overly charred. At least that's my guess.

[NorCalBoozer]

yup, i just found an article about a guy aging beer in some oak barrels. after about a week it was too woody.

it would speed up the flavoring but that would be another reason to make sure to taste test on a regular basis

I did find several places that make oak barrels of different sizes, one gallon, 2 gallon, etc.

How many gallons in a production barrel?

A 1.75L barrel would age extremely fast and that might not be desireable--I think it would anyway, due to a high surface-to-volume ratio. Would probably be either very woody or overly charred. At least that's my guess.

[TNbourbon]

...How many gallons in a production barrel?..

53.

Here's a small-barrel vendor -- but I don't know how you'd go about charring (or even lightly toasting) it:

Thousand Oaks Barrel Co.

[NorCalBoozer]

whoa 53, that might take me a while to drink thru. I did find another vendor that has charred barrels specific for "spirits" and they range from 1 gallon to 30 gallons.

http://www.redhillgeneralstore.com/barrels.htm?source=overture

...How many gallons in a production barrel?..

53.

Here's a small-barrel vendor -- but I don't know how you'd go about charring (or even lightly toasting) it:

Thousand Oaks Barrel Co.

[cowdery]

I've never heard of anyone doing this but there is no reason you couldn't. Put whiskey back into a white oak barrel and it will resume the aging process. I'm not quite sure what this will really tell you about your local weather conditions, but knock yourself out. There is no magic to the standard barrel size. Whiskey will age in any size barrel. Some math wizard here might be able to develop a ratio of internal surface area to volume, allowing you to compare a 53 gallon barrel to a smaller one. Remember too that real whiskey barrels are made with no glue, no finishes, no fasteners. They're just white oak that has been air or kiln dried, steamed to soften it for forming, held together by steel hoops, then charred on the inside. Remember too that most of them leak, at least a little, so don't set up your racks over the living room carpet.

[barturtle]

Well after reading about both of these barrel makers, they both offer toasted or charred barrels. But on the other hand, neither of them say whether they are made without hardware/glue, like traditional barrels. Though I would stay away from the wax lined ones.

I'm still not sure if this is a real valid experiment, but I would like to try the results

[lakegz]

So we cant buy anything larger then a 1.75 liter? Thats not America........thats not even Mexico!

[barturtle]

I was on a tour of Beam once and was watching them bottle some huge bottles for overseas somewhere, they were 3 or 4 liter bottles. Putting on the labels was like wallpapering I've never wanted a bottle of Beam white label so bad in my life.

Come to think of it, in 2001, at the Gala, they were pouring Four Roses out of the same size bottle

[jvanwinkle]

The reason you cannot buy a barrel of whiskey & take it home is really because the barrel must be stored on BATF Bonded property. That is so the Govt. can get the Excise Tax due when the barrrel is bottled & shipped.

Julian

[NorCalBoozer]

i live close to the ocean. I was thinking it would be interesting to see how the ocean air, along with the temperature changes and different humidity would affect the taste.

thanks for the info on the barrel specs. that is very helpful. The ones I saw for sale were specific to spirits like brandy and tequilla so i think i will be fine there.

I've never heard of anyone doing this but there is no reason you couldn't. Put whiskey back into a white oak barrel and it will resume the aging process. I'm not quite sure what this will really tell you about your local weather conditions, but knock yourself out. There is no magic to the standard barrel size. Whiskey will age in any size barrel. Some math wizard here might be able to develop a ratio of internal surface area to volume, allowing you to compare a 53 gallon barrel to a smaller one. Remember too that real whiskey barrels are made with no glue, no finishes, no fasteners. They're just white oak that has been air or kiln dried, steamed to soften it for forming, held together by steel hoops, then charred on the inside. Remember too that most of them leak, at least a little, so don't set up your racks over the living room carpet.

[Gillman]

It should be relatively easy to buy a new white oak keg that is blackened on the inside, buy a few jugs of bourbon (the 1.75 size commonly available), pour in keg, seal and wait a year or two. One would need to be sure there is no glue or other such additives in the wood but careful inquiry should be enough to confirm this.

If the oak isn't blackened, one can do this oneself provided normal precautions are taken. If it was me and I lived in a rural area, I would arrange for the keg to be charred from a straw fire, the way it was done originally (one of the ways, certainly).

I would do this with, say, Ancient Age but many other brands would be suitable. As Chuck says, you are just re-starting the aging.

I think a moist, maritime climate would be suitable, especially if the kegs were moved regularly. Bourbon and rye used to be shipped on clippers to hasten maturation.

Kegs come in all sizes and one holding, say, 20 litres or so should be ideal.

To my mind this should not be difficult to do, at least for someone in a rural area who can safely store such a container, e.g., in a shed.

The smaller the container is, the faster the maturation. In the 1930's, quarter-casks were used to mature whiskey. There was a shortage of whiskey post-Volstead and distillers needed to make a saleable product more quickly than would result from the standard barrel. It would be nice to do exact calculations but one could go by guess and go. E.g. at the end of one year, a sampling could be done to see if there was a clear improvement and a decision could be made whether to continue the process.

I am assuming there is no legal obstacle (federal, State, local), but applicable laws (ATF, environmental, safety, etc.) should be checked before proceeding.

Gary

[kbuzbee]

This is sounding interesting. You might come up with something that is very good. What do you think the odds are that this would be worth doing?

Ken

[Gillman]

Ken, I don't think there is any question that if done correctly an excellent result could be obtained. I would ensure the container had good aeration, if it was kept in a shed or maybe a garage with porous walls or windows periodically opened, that would help, to preclude the risk of mustiness. Obviously it would be important to monitor the cask and store it in a way that would remove the risk of damage from leakage or fire. But in terms of the quality, I think you'd end up with something quite good, maybe really good. I would age my own vattings, too, if I could. Fleishmann in 1885 advised that his blends should be casked and stored in the top level of the warehouse for three months. He said don't bother doing it though for spirits (GNS) because it won't mature - that guy knew his stuff. Again, see the extracts from his book at www.pre-pro.com.

Gary

[kbuzbee]

I'm getting more and more interested here.... I tried to find a link to Fleishmann's Book on pre-pro.com. I found the book listed but no online text....

I wonder how long a 6 -8 year bourbon should lay in a small (10 liter) cask?? 2 years??

And how hot does a Kentucky ware house get in summer???

Ken

[Gillman]

Click on "what's a shot glass", then on "what's a pre-pro shot glass", then go to page two of that page, and you will see a link called "rectifiers and blenders recipes". Follow that and it leads to the extract from the book. I have the complete text (I bought it from an antique book dealer) but the main parts that concern us here (his blending and mingling recipes) are all on the site.

Gary

[kbuzbee]

Ah got it... Thanks. Don't know how I missed that the first time....

That is interesting stuff...

Ken

[cowdery]

Kentucky warehouses get as hot as Kentucky gets. I'm sure that data is readily available from any number of weather sites. Warehouses typically are located on hilltops to maximize air circulation and exposure to the sun. How long? You should do what the distillers do, periodically open the barrel, withdraw some spirit, and check its progress. How often? That depends on how thirsty you are. Really, it probably depends on how much change you notice. If it seems to be aging quickly, you might want to check it more frequently. It's all part of the adventure.

[cowdery]

There shouldn't be any legal obstacles. If you buy the whiskey at retail it is your property. You can't resell it or serve it to minors, but those are the only restrictions on your use of it. There is certainly nothing to prevent you from decanting it into a wooden container.

[Gillman]

It would be a kick to see someone walk into a Gazebo with his personal keg for our delectation. The closest we've come is at KBF Gazebo just passed when I saw Randy walking with his glassy keg of Belmont 1919 bourbon. When I asked for a taste he said, "Are you kidding"?

Gary

P.S. Randy's done me some trading favours so I hesitate to ask again but Randy, you said you had an open one at home and if you can bring me two ounces next time I'll pay for 'em "pro rata", it's only fair, but I've got to try this!

P.P.S. I asked Randy what the Belmont tasted like and he said, "bourbon". A response both elliptical and insouciant, as we've come to expect from Van Blankle.