barrel programs...can I buy and age my own barrel?

[Gillman]

"The annual cycle of heating and cooling gives subtle effects that are only marginally different than, say, 4 straight years of steady summer temperature followed by 4 straight years of winter temperature."

Tim, if this was true, why do distillers (some of them) make such a big thing about artificial cycling? Doesn't the practice result in red layer sugars entering the spirit faster than if natural seasonal variations (much less a constant multi-year temperature) occur? You refer to rum, but rum isn't really sweet and when it is, I suspect the sweet comes from added caramel or sugar, not lignin and other wood sugars.

Gary

[kbuzbee]

For those of you who are a little shy when it comes to buying and filling

and storing a barrel, there is a smaller way to participate... although

it's not quite the same, and some would call it "cheating". Wineries often

put oak chips or sticks into the barrels to add more wood to the aging process.

I've seen quite a few reports of home distillers aging their whiskey in

glass bottles with such oak chips. It's not barrel aging, but it definitely

is wood aging!

I'd often wondered about doing that, even within a barrel. Something similar in concept to the Lincoln County Process but with an added time component. Great info, thanks Tim (and fun discussion too, takes me back to college p-Chem lectures!)

Ken

[AVB]

You can find some of the 4 liter bottles in duty free sometimes. I bought a 4 liter JB White 7-8 years ago in a duty free. Same with Johnnie Walker Black, they had a 4 liter at the Niagara Falls duty free just last month.

I was on a tour of Beam once and was watching them bottle some huge bottles for overseas somewhere, they were 3 or 4 liter bottles. Putting on the labels was like wallpapering I've never wanted a bottle of Beam white label so bad in my life.

Come to think of it, in 2001, at the Gala, they were pouring Four Roses out of the same size bottle

[kbuzbee]

To hijack a couple different threads from this and the other forum, perhaps this would be a great experiment for:

Old Potrero - I've thought this one needs more time in the barrel.

Woodford Reserve 4 grain - That is also something folk seem to be thinking here. Unfortunately this would be a VERY expensive experiment.

Maker's Mark - I wonder how MM would taste at say 12 years (equivalent aging)

As I said, I plan to do Wild Turkey 101 and I'm hoping for Tribute (yeah, right!)

Cheers,

Ken

[AVB]

For a long term , 4-8 years or so, wouldn't putting Vodka in a charred barrel be the truer test of what your area can do to the flavor?

[kbuzbee]

I don't think so. My understanding is the really good stuff is due to a reaction between the char zone in the wood and the flavor components of the grains, particularly the rye and the corn. Vodka would change, to be sure, and you may be right that the amount of change would reflect your particular circumstance but it would not yield aged whisky, let alone Bourbon (which is MY goal).

Ken

[barturtle]

I don't think so, as vodka is distilled to a higher proof to make it taste neutral. Whiskey still has many more compounds left in it that add flavor. These compounds seem to interact with the barrel over time.

Now if you could make identical mixes and ship them to different areas of the country...Hmm, one in the swamps of Louisiana, one in the deserts of Arizona, the great white north, California coast, and so on...that would test the area.

I think this is more to see what can be done, by making a blend and reintroducing the spirit to a barrel.

I think this is more supposed to be a fun exercise with a little science(Black Arts?) thrown in, than an imperical experiment.

[barturtle]

Seems there is(was?) a whiskey that did something similar. They added Mesquite to either the barrel or to a vatting later. I remember having it, you could really taste the new flavor. I can't say it was a flavor I liked, but I also can't say that with some work, that it couldn't be made to be palatable.

[kbuzbee]

Seems there is(was?) a whiskey that did something similar. They added Mesquite to either the barrel or to a vatting later. I remember having it, you could really taste the new flavor. I can't say it was a flavor I liked, but I also can't say that with some work, that it couldn't be made to be palatable.

Cool, Tim. If you recall what is was, post it. I'd love to give it a go.

Ken

[kbuzbee]

I think this is more supposed to be a fun exercise with a little science(Black Arts?) thrown in, than an imperical experiment.

Gillmanizing II Return to the Wood

Seriously, someone could do the Woodford thing. Take a High Wheat and a High Rye and mix them. You'd have a non coppery 4 grain..... hmmmmm How about Maker's Mark and Old Overholt???

Ken

[barturtle]

I looked it up.

There are two now, the one I had was McKendric Western Style, it has a leather label. The other one is McKendric Longhorn Creek.

[kbuzbee]

Thanks Tim, never heard them but they sound very interesting. Not sure Mesquite is the flavor profile I'm looking at (but I'll remain open until I eventually try it).

Ken

[gr8erdane]

Not meaning to hijack the thread but I've seen both at local stores but the word "mesquite" on the label just didn't push any buttons for me. My first thought was "sales gimmick" when I saw it and was never really tempted to purchase it. When I think of mesquite, I think smoke. Maybe this was an Americanized attempt to bridge Bourbon and Scotch?

I had thought that someone could get some barrel char like BT sells and add it to a container and pour some young whiskey in to try to age it further but most of the best taste comes from the wood UNDER the char in the barrel so I think this would add char taste but not necessarily anything else.

[kbuzbee]

I see your point, Dane... Perhaps larger pieces could be "charred" to leave the wood inside intact?? The process would be the same.

Ken

[barturtle]

Independent Stave sells "tank staves" that are essentially that. Used for wine aging, and normally only toasted, but I think that these would work if you could find a way to get that precise char level that barrel makers get, and get it on all four sides.

The problems with doing this way seem to be all of the effects discussed earlier that also affect the flavor profile; evaporation (and the differing rates between water and alcohol) and oxidation

[kbuzbee]

True but... since we are just finishing the bourbon, stability in most areas may be a plus.... Dunno?

Ken

[barturtle]

Very true. I only thought that since the whiskey we would be using here is diluted, it would be nice to slowly try to recondense it. Though in my mind, using anything other than a wooden barrel would be taking it into the realm of the newer "experimental" Canadians, with their rules allowing additions to the final product. Not that some of these aren't fine whiskies in their own right, but definitely not a straight whiskey.

BTW, make sure to post pics, I gotta see this.

[kbuzbee]

BTW, make sure to post pics, I gotta see this.

Absolutely.

Ken

[JeffRenner]

Here's a small-barrel vendor -- but I don't know how you'd go about charring (or even lightly toasting) it:

Thousand Oaks Barrel Co.

There is an auction for a 3-4 liter medium char oak cask by Thousand Oaks Barrel Co. on eBay now. $29.95/Buy it Now $34.95, plus $12.95 shipping. Comes with a stand and spigot.

I think a small keg like this is going to be more of a conversation piece than anything. As has been discussed here, it will probably contribute a lot of barrel character very quickly.

After all, in one way of looking at it, all bourbon undergoes most of its aging in a used barrel. They are only new at the beginning.

I suspect that even very young bourbon rebarreled in a new barrel will have an awfully lot of barrel character - maybe too much. I think it is possible that with enough throughput, as the barrel becomes "used," additional refills might not be too bad.

A friend of mine has an old family recipe for making "bourbon." They don't know much about the mashing and fermentation part (malt extract, sugar and charred corn), but they manipulated the still (converted 10 gallon milk canister) skillfully, and then age it in a new five gallon charred oak barrel. One secret is that they put a bottle of port in the barrel first. (Don't know what quality.)

I had a few nips back a few years ago before I was really into bourbon and I thought it was mighty tasty. I can only imagine what it might be like with a decent sour mash.

Jeff

[koji]

Hi guys

Heres my own barrel at my bar, it is an Independent Stave Company made

new charred barrel 18 liter size, originally with Willet 104proof Bourbon.

I think I had this for 3 or 4 years and I filled it up twice or more, drinking alot

but evaporation is more than 5% a year! I dont know about the math but it

does evaporate pretty fast.

And the taste really changes day to day,

It tends to taste a litte better in the winter, but again day to day change.

Haven't any of you bought barrels at the Festival ground at the ISC booth ?

They sell two sizes every year there. Buy em ! I always take mine on the plane

home to Japan.

Koji

[kbuzbee]

Hey Koji... Cool! Do you recall how much the ISC barrels sell for??

Ken

[doubleblank]

I looked at them at this years booth. They had several sizes....ranged from $30 to $100 as I recall.....didn't buy one though but they were very cool. They also sell a cool tee-shirt for $10. The full size barrels run approx $175 or less ...... but hold 53 gallons.

Randy

[dougdog]

I have a couple other thoughts and questions.

I believe that most bourbons are chill-filtered, am I right or wrong?

Does rebarreling a chill-filtered whiskey, even at higher proof, make any sense?

Are there brands that chill-filter less or not at all?

And, would the wood influence from re-barreling add back any fats or items that would traditionall be removed in the cold filtration process? (or do all the fats come from the raw spirit?)

HELP! Chuck, Gary, Julian, Roger, ken...anybody...

Thanks in advance for any input...

dougdog

[kbuzbee]

There are brands that are unfiltered (Bookers for example). Wild Turkey says they are 'lightly filtered'. I would think having some unfiltered in the mix would be a plus. Personally, I'm not a big fan of chill filtering anyway. It looks pretty when cold, but I drink it at room temp so even if I cared about that, I wouldn't care about that (which I don't) My understanding is the flavor oils come from the distillate, not the wood.

Ken

[Gillman]

Doug, I am not sure whether filtered solids all come from the barrel (some surely do), but I don't think it matters if whiskey rebarreled or double-casked is filtered first. I base this on the evident similarity of filtered and unfiltered whiskey. Filtration is done mainly to avoid a chill haze. Most bourbons are filtered today, Booker's is a well-known exception. Van Winkle used not to filter his higher proof products but now all are filtered (I believe). I don't see this as an issue in terms of rebarreling.

Gary