A. H. Hirsch 20 yo

[Night Gallery]

Greetings!

Long time bourbon drinker (Blantons is a favorite) who has a question for those in the know. What is the value of a bottle of A.H. Hirsch 20 year old bourbon these days?

Thanks in advance for your time.

-Bill

[TNbourbon]

Well, an open one around this group would be worth an entree into some very fine comraderie and fellowship.

Otherwise, it's been a heckuva long time since one's even come up on eBay, so who knows what the going rate would be? I paid $108 each for a quartet in December 2005. Today, that's Hirsch 16yo territory.

[barturtle]

Somewhere between what I'm willing to pay for one and what I willing to let one go for.

[Night Gallery]

I recall that the first bottling of the 16 yo had a blue wax top. A friend told me recently that the last 16 yo Hirsch released had a gold cap and that it wasn't quite as good as the first release. Why would this be? If the bourbon was stored in stainless steel containers as opposed to wood, shouldn't it taste exactly like the first release?

[barturtle]

I recall that the first bottling of the 16 yo had a blue wax top. A friend told me recently that the last 16 yo Hirsch released had a gold cap and that it wasn't quite as good as the first release. Why would this be? If the bourbon was stored in stainless steel containers as opposed to wood, shouldn't it taste exactly like the first release?

Well, you would think, but even though for the most part bourbon is highly stable, it will change a bit with time.

[Night Gallery]

Thanks Timothy! It would be nice to have both to make a side by side comparison. I'm making my own mouth water.

Time for me to hit the hay. Have a great night and thanks for the conversation.

-Bill

[nor02lei]

Greetings!

Long time bourbon drinker (Blantons is a favorite) who has a question for those in the know. What is the value of a bottle of A.H. Hirsch 20 year old bourbon these days?

Thanks in advance for your time.

-Bill

Bill,

It very seldom show up here in Europe but it was one sold on an auction a mouth ago and it went for 242 euro. I think that reflects the price level here pretty well.

Leif

[cowdery]

Although some people who have had both the gold foil and some previous bottling of the 16-year-old consider the earlier bottlings to be superior, there isn't a consensus to that effect.

Some number north of $250 probably would be appropriate for a Hirsch 20.

For the record, we're talking about A. H. Hirsch (Michters) bourbon, not one of the Hirsch ryes.

Here's why there might be a difference between Hirsch bottlings:

The first bottling of Hirsch bourbon was done in 1989. It was 47 cases, which is the contents of 2, maybe 3 barrels. Subsequent bottlings were larger, up to about 340 cases, the equivalent of maybe 20 barrels. Every few months, the owner of the stock would send a few more barrels to the bottler. The next year, most of the whiskey was dumped into tanks, but everything bottled until 1992 was bottled from barrels, not from the tank, and the last of the barrels weren't dumped until early 1995.

Between 1992 and 1995, some of the whiskey bottled came from barrels, some from tanks. In early 1995 (it may have been late 1994), the 20-year-old was bottled for the first and only time. It was the biggest bottling run of Hirsch to that date, 500 cases.

Due to changes in ownership, no Hirsch was bottled between 1995 and 2003. In 2003, all of the remaining stock was bottled. At 2,500 cases, the last bottling run was bigger than all of the previous runs combined. That's the 16-year-old, 91.6 proof, gold foil that is still in stores.

From 1989 to 1995, most of the Hirsch was the contents of a small number of barrels, dumped just for that bottling, so even though it all came from the same stock of bourbon all made at about the same time, it was a small batch selection-wise, so each batch would have been different. Then there was that long period when none of it was bottled, then all the rest was bottled at once.

You should expect variation from bottling to bottling due to the way it was bottled. The 16-year-old gold foil is all from one batch and the 20-year-old is all from one batch, but everything else is from individual, small batches.

[nor02lei]

Although some people who have had both the gold foil and some previous bottling of the 16-year-old consider the earlier bottlings to be superior, there isn't a consensus to that effect.

Some number north of $250 probably would be appropriate for a Hirsch 20.

For the record, we're talking about A. H. Hirsch (Michters) bourbon, not one of the Hirsch ryes.

Here's why there might be a difference between Hirsch bottlings:

The first bottling of Hirsch bourbon was done in 1989. It was 47 cases, which is the contents of 2, maybe 3 barrels. Subsequent bottlings were larger, up to about 340 cases, the equivalent of maybe 20 barrels. Every few months, the owner of the stock would send a few more barrels to the bottler. The next year, most of the whiskey was dumped into tanks, but everything bottled until 1992 was bottled from barrels, not from the tank, and the last of the barrels weren't dumped until early 1995.

Between 1992 and 1995, some of the whiskey bottled came from barrels, some from tanks. In early 1995 (it may have been late 1994), the 20-year-old was bottled for the first and only time. It was the biggest bottling run of Hirsch to that date, 500 cases.

Due to changes in ownership, no Hirsch was bottled between 1995 and 2003. In 2003, all of the remaining stock was bottled. At 2,500 cases, the last bottling run was bigger than all of the previous runs combined. That's the 16-year-old, 91.6 proof, gold foil that is still in stores.

From 1989 to 1995, most of the Hirsch was the contents of a small number of barrels, dumped just for that bottling, so even though it all came from the same stock of bourbon all made at about the same time, it was a small batch selection-wise, so each batch would have been different. Then there was that long period when none of it was bottled, then all the rest was bottled at once.

You should expect variation from bottling to bottling due to the way it was bottled. The 16-year-old gold foil is all from one batch and the 20-year-old is all from one batch, but everything else is from individual, small batches.

Very, very interesting information Chuck. I haven’t been drinking much Hirsch myself but I have been puzzled by the postings here in the forum that almost unanimous have stated that different versions of this brand have tasted different.

Leif

[Night Gallery]

Thank you for your enlightening post Chuck. It really would be interesting to compare the three different bottlings of the 16 yo in a side by side test. Could it be that the difference between them all may be more subtle than I've been led to believe?

Again, thanks for the information - I'll be sure to pass it on.

............................................. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Leif - Thank you as well for your input!

[bluesbassdad]

NG,

As one who was terribly disappointed with the gold foil, I will say that to me the difference is anything but subtle.

It may be more accurate to say that whatever difference may exist, it it is discerned differently by different people.

I was so in love with the gold wax bottling that I went crazy when one of the Chicago stores offered the newer, gold foil bottling at a special price immediately upon its release. IIRC, it was either $40 or $50.

I bought several bottles, only two of which I've opened. Last year I dug out what I thought was all of my stash and sold it at my cost to a fellow SBer. He may send his kids to college on what he makes by reselling it, or he may trade for other, rare bottlings. He may even find that he enjoys drinking it. I don't care. I just wanted to get it out of my sight. I didn't want to be reminded of my foolish mistake.

The mistake was compounded by the fact that I briefly considered stocking up on Van Winkle Lot "B" instead. I wish I had.

Recent I was pawing through an especially dusty area of my stash, and I came upon a bottle I had missed. Is it possible for an inanimate object to taunt? :crazy:

Yours truly,

Dave Morefield

[TNbourbon]

Thank you for your enlightening post Chuck. It really would be interesting to compare the three different bottlings of the 16 yo in a side by side test. Could it be that the difference between them all may be more subtle than I've been led to believe?..

Well, I've had them all, with a gold-foil (last, largest issue) currently open, and a blue-wax (first issue) recently emptied -- in fact, on the night the former was uncorked:

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=91923&postcount=1.

The difference between them is NOT subtle. While the current one is better-than-average whiskey, the original was superb.

I've had the gold-wax -- and deposited a couple on Gazebo tables -- but can only remember that I'd place it closer to the blue-wax than the gold-foil.

[nor02lei]

Well, I've had them all

Does that include the Boone´s Knoll bottling Tim? On this link there in a photo of it: http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5507&highlight=knoll

I have not tasted it myself but the plan is to open and taste it against the current Hirsch 16 sometime during the next dull Swedish winter.

Leif

[RedVette]

The difference between them is NOT subtle.

I have never owned a blue wax, nor a Hirsch 20, but have been fortunate enough to have sampled several different blue wax bottles. It is in my top 5 all time Bourbons, maybe number 1. On one very special evening I was comparing Blue Wax vs. ORVW-15-107 and that night the blue wax won. Up until that day I considered the ORVW to be my #1. I currently have a gold wax open as well as a gold foil, and while they are both very good it is no contest.

[mgilbertva]

I had the gold foil at my brother's and didn't care for it. The negatives for me are that it's very dry, almost astringent, thinner than I like, with a noticeably metallic finish. It has some good points, but they are neutralized by these negatives.

At a tasting in Maryland, Howie (stoopsie) opened a bottle of the blue wax from his collection. I thought the difference was night and day. Where the gold foil is restrained and even stingy, the blue wax is warm and generous. It has none of the metallic and other harsh qualities I associate with the gold foil.

The 20yr, while I wouldn't say it's better than the blue wax, holds up well to the extra aging. More wood, not surprisingly, but even more elegant. It loses a bit in intensity and the clarity of the various flavors, but makes up for it in other ways. I would say what they were but I would need a longer exposure.

I can't speak to the gold wax as I have never had it.

But again, between the gold foil and blue wax, there's no comparison.

[AVB]

Re: 20 yo Pricing.

I paid $200 in March 2006 for a bottle and $225 in April 2007.

If anyone has a Blue or Gold Wax 16 that wants to sell or deal I'd like to add them to my collection.

[cowdery]

To put point on the scarcity of these bottles, here is how many were made, by age:

15 year old: 721 cases

16 year old: 2,856 cases

18 year old: 37 cases

19 year old: 121 cases

20 year old: 500 cases

[bluesbassdad]

Chuck,

Do you also have the breakdown of the 16 y/o by blue wax, gold wax and gold foil?

I was thinking I read that information in The Bourbon Country Reader in the last year or two.

Yours truly,

Dave Morefield

[cowdery]

My records, which came from Julian Van Winkle, don't show the cap color. However, I believe the gold foil represents the 2,500 cases bottled in 2003. Before that, there were 500 cases of 16-year-old made in July of 1993. The balance, 65 cases, was made in 91-92. I assume those are the three groups, but other than the gold foil I don't know which was which color.

[Sweetmeats]

Hirsch 16 goes for 199.00 now at Bevmo.

Yikes.

[SBOmarc]

At that price it may not be there much longer. It will not be me, but that means nothing.

[nor02lei]

When in Kentucky in September Hirsch was over 100 USD and locked up almost everywhere I saw it with made it the only brand there more expensive than the German online stores I normally shop from. I can still have it for 63 euro plus shipping.

Leif

[snakster]

Saw one bottle in NJ today for $86. Being that I have one that is 3/4s full and 2 unopened, I passed. But I have made a mental note. Besides, the next time I pay that much, it will be for a second bottle of PVW20 (now $74 in PA).

[snakster]

My apologies, I erred badly. The Hirsh I saw in in NJ was 16 yo, not 20. If it was the 20, I certainly would have bought it. I apologize for mixing a 16 post inadvertantly into a thread on the 20.

[Sijan]

Was it 16 yo gold foil Hirsch or blue/gold wax? I think the 16 yo gold foil Hirsch are still fairly common - just usually priced at $100+.

I think I got some Pappy 20 this past weekend for $70 at one of the mega-stores in NJ.