A. H. Hirsch 20 yo

[BourbonJoe]

In Austin it is $32.99.

Not the new stuff, The stuff from 1952 in the same bottle as the very very old?

Joe :usflag:

[HighTower]

From memory, that VVSOF was sold To Julian for his collection.

Scott

[ACDetroit]

This one went for $66.00 + shipping but the one before this went for $151.00 + Shipping.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=270170451834&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:PIC&ih=017

I pissed I was going to bid on this and forgot...you snooze, you lose.

[TNbourbon]

This one went for $66.00 + shipping but the one before this went for $151.00 + Shipping.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=270170451834&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:PIC&ih=017...

This one is a half-pint. The one that brought $151.50 was a fifth. Interesting (and eyebrow-raising) that the green, BIB tax strips were missing on both of these.

[cowdery]

What does a bottle of Very Special Old Fitzgerald go for?

Joe :usflag:

Very Special Old Fitzgerald is, well, nothing special. It's good bourbon but it was created in the 90s as part of the Bourbon Heritage Collection and is still made by Heaven Hill today. The genuinely esteemed Old Fitzgerald is/was the Very Very Old Fitzgerald. There were some other iterations, one with a single "Very," the other an "Extra." This was the series begun by Pappy Van Winkle in the 1950s.

Both the Very Very Old and the Very Special Old are 12-year-olds, but the similarity ends there.

[NorCalBoozer]

A bottle of Very Very Special Old Fitzgerald went for $651.11.

Just wanted to point out that I believe you mean Very Very Old Fitzgerald.

I've never heard of a Very Very Special Old Fitzgerald.

There is also a current Very Special Old Fitzgerald release that I think may have caused the confusion with Very Very Old Fitzgerald. I think Heaven Hill puts out the VSOF.

Greg

[Night Gallery]

Well, I guess these two are in the same league, as the Hirsch 19 yo sold for $655.75 with shipping + handling.

[sionilli69]

Hi, I haven't been on here for awhile, but about 5 years ago I learned of the dwindling supplies of the 16 and 20 year old Hirsch. I got lucky one day, walked into a local store that had three bottles of the 20 for $225 each, which I couldn't believe, but I bought them anyway. Then I found an online store in San Francisco who was selling the 20's for about the same price, so I bought two more. I'm not rich, I had just gotten a little money from my father's estate.

I also along the way picked up three bottles of the 16 year old gold wax.

During the next two years I drank two of the 16 and one of the 20. Both fantastic, but I was running into some money trouble, so I put one of the 20's up on Ebay at $300. No bites, but a couple of emails telling me I would never get that much. True on the auction, but a wealthy entertainment person, not famous, but wealthy, saw the auction and wrote to me and asked how much for the 20's. I said "How about $500 each?". I sold three of the four and couldn't believe my good luck. I now have one of each left and I still can't decide whether or not to contact that fellow again or just open them up and enjoy. It's hard to decide when there's so many other good ones available. Any advice from anyone as to what they'd suggest? Just curious...I'm not fishing for buyers, I'd just like to know what the experts and afficianados think. Thanks...

[cowdery]

It's just whiskey, after all. Reading your story, had I been in your situation and the opportunity presented itself, I would have done the same thing. You've tasted the stuff, so you're in a better position than anyone else to judge how important it would be to you to be able to drink it. There's nothing an "expert" can add to that.

[Vange]

I agree with Chuck, but will add this. The 16 and 20 Hirsch are pieces of US history and are from the oldest US distillery. They will never be made again. Even if they are not the greatest bourbon, they make great conversation pieces, and they just flat out feel nice to have in a bunker.

Now, if you really need the money, I would be hard pressed to not sell them for that price. They do not taste what I would expect $500 whisky to taste like!

[doubleblank]

Here in Houston, Spec's has just priced the latest inventory of Hirsch 16 at $135 at the downtown store. Probably won't move very fast at that price.

Randy

[ACDetroit]

I looked at the State Minimum book at a store 2 days ago and the Hirsch has gone up to $187.99. I agree you can keep it at that price. I am even more excited about the 3 I found at a very old price just last week.

All 3 blue wax's will never see eBay and one has been opened, Wow!

AC

[cas]

It was $59 at Binneys a year ago (gold foil). I don't understand the rationale behind Michigan's minimum pricing policy.

BTW - you can check the MI minimum on the web.

Craig

[NorCalBoozer]

It was $59 at Binneys a year ago (gold foil). I don't understand the rationale behind Michigan's minimum pricing policy.

BTW - you can check the MI minimum on the web.

Craig

having always lived in a non state controlled liquor state, do these items go thru a distributor and then to the state stores or is the state the distributor and seller?

just wondering how many levels of markup there is.

Thanks, Greg.

[cowdery]

In all control states, the state is the sole distributor and takes the markup as "state profit," as distinguished from "tax." In some control states, the state also is the sole retailer and takes the retail markup as well, along with any retail tax. Presumably, the only difference between "profit" and "tax" is that the "profit" is retained by the alcohol agency to finance its operations, while the "tax" goes directly to the state taxing authority.

I don't know how market-sensitive these agencies are, or if their markup is based on a fixed formula, i.e., a true percentage markup to the amount charged by the producer. I suspect the latter, in which case the price increase reflects an increase in the price the producer is charging.

[BourbonJoe]

I can't tell you how control states are regulated but I can tell you that it pisses me off to no end to live in one.

Joe :usflag:

[mgilbertva]

having always lived in a non state controlled liquor state, do these items go thru a distributor and then to the state stores or is the state the distributor and seller?

just wondering how many levels of markup there is.

Thanks, Greg.

Chuck covered the mark-ups pretty well.

ABC states like Virginia, North Carolina, and Pennsylvania are complete monopolies.

It is my understanding that they purchase from the big distributors like Southern Wine and Spirits, just like a normal liquor store would do in a non-control state. I imagine they get a pretty good case discount.

ABC controls all wholesale and retail sales, and disallow retail licensees from purchasing alcohol from any other source but themselves. So if they are out of a product, no matter how common or rare, and you are a licensee (store, restaurant, bar), you cannot drive across the state border to purchase it from someone else. You're out of luck.

ABC states provide all the service, quality, and benefits you would expect from a state-run bureaucracy.

On the other hand, there are states like West Virginia that are controlled by the state only at the wholesale level, but retailers are private businesses.

[cowdery]

Control states do not buy from the big distributors like Southern Wine and Spirits. They are distributors themselves and buy directly from the producers, such as Heaven Hill, Diageo, Beam Global and Sazerac.

[ACDetroit]

I just spoke to the BT rep on this, and Michigan can up the price of Liquor every quarter. The retailer is sent a State minimum catalog and he (retailer) is responsable to up the price on anything he has in the book. If an agent were to come in and try to buy something at less than the State minimum? The store can be charged by the state $1,000 per bottle. Not worth the fine for most stores, or as Chuck said! get to know your local Whiskey mongar!! Or something like that...It's gotta be time for bed ?????????:skep:

[AVB]

Pennsylvania is the largest liquor buyer in the world. Sometimes that clout shows up in pricing and sometimes it is out in left field somewhere.

[mgilbertva]

Control states do not buy from the big distributors like Southern Wine and Spirits. They are distributors themselves and buy directly from the producers, such as Heaven Hill, Diageo, Beam Global and Sazerac.

I was a manager in charge of the liquor program at a restaurant in Virginia. While there I received several visits from SWS reps, as well as a couple others. He was interested to see that we were selling his product line, and provided information on current sales trends, products and tasting opportunities. This included Wild Turkey products.

Now if VA ABC by-passed SWS and always purchased straight from the producers, why would he do that?

Moreover, his colleague was able to get me information on upcoming sales well in advance of ABC releasing that information.

[ThomasH]

Ohio is the same way. It acts as wholesaler and retailer. It doesn't even own its retail stores anymore, instead it pays private store owners a commission on there wholesale and retail sales they make. They are total cheapskates and the selection in most stores gets worse by the day!

Thomas

[cowdery]

I spoke too soon and, after some research, am now more confused than ever.

According to the Southern Wine and Spirits (SWS) web site, "The Pennsylvania Liquor Control Board (PLCB), the official state entity that handles the actual distribution and retail sale of wine and spirits in Pennsylvania, is the largest such Control State operation in the United States; it is the only Control State market where a Southern Wine & Spirits of America, Inc.-owned operation is present." If the PLCB handles the "actual distribution," then what does SWS do?

Plus, contrary to the statement above, the SWS web site shows that SWS has a Virginia operation too, as Mark points out. I quickly scanned the Virginia ABC web site, but couldn't find anything pertinent.

As the National Alcohol Beverage Control Association (NABCA) says on its web site: "The Control State System works for the community the way the community wants it to work."

It has always been my understanding that in Ohio, where I'm from, the state is the sole distributor there too, yet it also appears to have a SWS presence, accordiing to the SWS web site.

Since state governments like to collect money but prefer not to do any actual work (does anyone disagree?), perhaps they buy from distributors rather than directly from producers simply because that's easier for them. The distributors are prepared to offer a range of services that, perhaps, the producers are not. It's also possible (I can't readily determine the answer to this) that it's a mixture. Perhaps a big producer like Diageo or Beam Global sells direct, but smaller operators such as Heaven Hill, or much smaller guys like Luxco, go through somebody like SWS, which is as big as many producers.

[barturtle]

I would think the states have outsourced the actual warehousing and delivery to these distributors, as it would be more cost effective for the state to simply take care of the paperwork portion of the operations. The state would still set pricing and stock, while no longer having to deal with a fleet of vehicles and buildings to take care of.