Micro / Craft Distilleries

[DeanSheen]

I really like the Stranahan's. That was the first bottle of non bourbon I went looking for. Flying Dog brewery is now in Frederick, MD and they provided the mash to Stranahan's back in CO. I like the beer and wanted to try the whiskey. I've never seen the Grand Mesa. How is it different from the regular?

It was finished in a red wine cask. I think the wine was from Colorado also.

[booniesville]

The Weller is from my friend's grandparent's basement. He found it and, not beign a big fan of bourbon, gave it to me. I believe it is from the 60's. The cork was rotted so the angels definitley got their share but it was still 3/4 full. I strained the contents and was blown away by the flavor. It is very dense, not woody just concentrated with a syrup texture. The color is very dark and rich. I would say it is a mix between PVW 15 and GTS. It's my favorite bottle in the collection. Here is a then and now picture.

[booniesville]

Here is a couple more pictures.

[booniesville]

The tax stamp says the District of Columbia

[booniesville]

Just picked up the St George out of CA. Not bad. A little sweet but with a nice barley flavor. I expected something similar to a liqueur after reading some of the posts, but found the sweetness did not over power. One of the better craft offerings I've tried. As a side not, I was born about 20 minutes from the distillery:grin:.

[cowdery]

The current trend among so-called craft distillers is to make malt whiskey, often from wash provided by a micro-brewery. This approach to whiskey-making is promoted by the American Distilling Institute. My criticism is that in trying to create a market for American malt whiskey you are essentially starting from scratch, since making malt whiskey is not part of the American whiskey-making tradition. Do you think there really is a market for American Malt Whiskey?

[jburlowski]

Do you think there really is a market for American Malt Whiskey?

Yes... a micro one.

[booniesville]

I would agree that these distillers seem to be releasing products with out any clear vision. I think the most successful products I've tried are the young whiskeys. Most Wanted, Kopper Kettle(no longer made), and Mountain Moonshine have a refreshing light quality (which I realy like) and are at a moderate price point ($12 - $22). Their flavor is different and unique with out trying to be an aged bourbon or scotch. The malt guys make a nice product and are seeing some success(Stranahan's) but is it good enough to buy another bottle? The malts are all $30 + bottles and outside the impulse range. I enjoy tracking down bottles but have only found a few I would buy again.

[booniesville]

Yes... a micro one.

:slappin:That's hilarious.

[p_elliott]

I would agree that these distillers seem to be releasing products with out any clear vision. I think the most successful products I've tried are the young whiskeys. Most Wanted, Kopper Kettle(no longer made), and Mountain Moonshine have a refreshing light quality (which I realy like) and are at a moderate price point ($12 - $22). Their flavor is different and unique with out trying to be an aged bourbon or scotch. The malt guys make a nice product and are seeing some success(Stranahan's) but is it good enough to buy another bottle? The malts are all $30 + bottles and outside the impulse range. I enjoy tracking down bottles but have only found a few I would buy again.

You seem to have a little more experience with this what are some of the ones you would buy again?

[Josh]

Micros, I've had a few, but then again, too few to mention.

By far Virginia Lightning is the best. Just how an unaged corn should be, rich buttery, curvaceous, just the best.

I've also had New Holland Brewery's Zeppelin whiskey. It corresponds to the micro-brewery model mentioned above. It is definately a malt, but I remember a significant amount of corn as well. I got a lot of bittersweet chocolate in the nose and on the palate. It was surprisingly smooth too for an NAS.

But at $60 a bottle, and $8 for a pour in the bar, it's too expensive. Why spend that much when I can get a good-great bourbon or rye for a fraction of the price? To me, that's the biggest obstacle to selling the brewery malt whiskeys. Because they are limited releases, the price becomes more than the average American Whiskey drinker is willing to pay.

[ILLfarmboy]

Micros, I've had a few, but then again, too few to mention.

By far Virginia Lightning is the best. Just how an unaged corn should be, rich buttery, curvaceous, just the best.

I've also had New Holland Brewery's Zeppelin whiskey. It corresponds to the micro-brewery model mentioned above. It is definately a malt, but I remember a significant amount of corn as well. I got a lot of bittersweet chocolate in the nose and on the palate. It was surprisingly smooth too for an NAS.

But at $60 a bottle, and $8 for a pour in the bar, it's too expensive. Why spend that much when I can get a good-great bourbon or rye for a fraction of the price? To me, that's the biggest obstacle to selling the brewery malt whiskeys. Because they are limited releases, the price becomes more than the average American Whiskey drinker is willing to pay.

[sailor22]

I haven't had a lot of experience with a lot of the micro's products - but two that I really like are Stranahans and Anchor's Old Portrero Singe Malt Rye at 90 proof. The current offering. I suppose Anchor is considered a Mico based on current distribution.

If your trying to make a new product work and be profitable it makes sense to cede the "traditional" market to the established players and find something you do well and distinctively that you can hang your reputation on. If that's malt whiskey or corn lightnin then good on em. If it's good tasting american whiskey and I can afford it then it will find a place on my shelf.

[booniesville]

You seem to have a little more experience with this what are some of the ones you would buy again?

I have tried to buy more Templeton but couldn't find it the last time I was in Iowa. I would also buy Stranahan's but mainly because my wife likes it. Most Wanted whiskey is another because it is cheap and nice in the summer. St. George is a little sweet but excellent after dinner so maybe if I finish the bottle. The others have their place but I don't know if I would replace them.

[callmeox]

I like the juice that Templeton is selling now and I'm going to have to save some of what I have for when they start producing their own stuff so that I can compare. You can consider them a micro/craft distiller based on intent, but not by any product that they have sold yet.

[booniesville]

I like the juice that Templeton is selling now and I'm going to have to save some of what I have for when they start producing their own stuff so that I can compare. You can consider them a micro/craft distiller based on intent, but not by any product that they have sold yet.

Are they considered a micro bottler ? I first heard of them in the ADI news letter and bought the story. It was a little disipointing to find out they didn't distill the whiskey. Did they have any input on the mash bill and barrel storage or are they only buying a finished product?

[callmeox]

In short, they won't talk about the source of the whiskey that they sell. You can find a couple discussions here on SB if you use the forum search and the fact that they're not telling bothers some folks, but not me.

It *is* a bit pricey for an 80 proofer (though the price has dropped a bit recently) but I seem to gravitate toward ryes, including Templeton.

Don't let the bogus back story kill your enjoyment of the product. Much of the lore around American whiskey brands is bunk.

[p_elliott]

I have tried to buy more Templeton but couldn't find it the last time I was in Iowa. I would also buy Stranahan's but mainly because my wife likes it. Most Wanted whiskey is another because it is cheap and nice in the summer. St. George is a little sweet but excellent after dinner so maybe if I finish the bottle. The others have their place but I don't know if I would replace them.

[p_elliott]

Are they considered a micro bottler ? I first heard of them in the ADI news letter and bought the story. It was a little disipointing to find out they didn't distill the whiskey. Did they have any input on the mash bill and barrel storage or are they only buying a finished product?

[cowdery]

Templeton is a NDP (non-distiller producer). They have a still and claim to be making something in it, but nothing they have sold to this point comes from that still.

Although no one will confirm this on the record, it seems pretty certain that the source is the former Seagram's distillery in Lawrenceburg, Indiana, now owned by Angostura and known as Lawrenceburg Distillers Indiana (LDI). Again based on piecing together available information, this also appears to be the source of the whiskey being sold by High West Distillery in Utah.

The whiskey made at Lawrenceburg was made for use in various Seagram's blends, both its American blends and Canadian blends (which can contain up to 9% 'other' spirits). The whiskey they used for Templeton is excellent and although I haven't had the High West, I have heard good things about that too.

The "made to their specifications" claim is puffery too. Scott Bush (owner of Templeton) was probably still in high school when that whiskey was distilled. The first bottles of Templeton Rye were released shortly after the company's federal license was granted, i.e., they were a brand new business selling fully-aged whiskey.

I would like to believe that all of these outfits will transition to a housemade product, but the record is not good. Look at Conecuh Ridge, which first appeared in about 2004. They admitted that their Alabama moonshine was being made in Kentucky, but professed an intention to build a distillery in Alabama to make their own. It never happened.

One problem is that it is next to impossible to duplicate an existing whiskey at a completely different distillery. Even the majors have trouble doing it, imagine the obstacles for a small start-up, trying to duplicate a commercially-produced whiskey in a small, micro-distillery operation. More power to them if they can do it, but we have yet to taste the proof.

[booniesville]

I do like the story on the back of the bottle and don't tell people the "whole" story when they try it. I think Wasmond's has a very nice rye spirit that will be fantastic when aged properly.

[miller542]

Although no one will confirm this on the record, it seems pretty certain that the source is the former Seagram's distillery in Lawrenceburg, Indiana, now owned by Angostura and known as Lawrenceburg Distillers Indiana (LDI). Again based on piecing together available information, this also appears to be the source of the whiskey being sold by High West Distillery in Utah.

The whiskey made at Lawrenceburg was made for use in various Seagram's blends, both its American blends and Canadian blends (which can contain up to 9% 'other' spirits). The whiskey they used for Templeton is excellent and although I haven't had the High West, I have heard good things about that too.

Funny someone should mention High West. I was just in Park City last week and saw High West mentioned several places and thought I'd look into it. The future building is truly in the shadow of the town lift, on block off historic Main St. - you know, the one you see in all pictures of the Sundance Film Festival. They say they'll be open Summer 2009, but they're going to miss that by a long shot. The building they're in doesn't look like it's been touched in about 40 years, but it is a fenced-off construction site and there is clearly work being done. It really didn't seem like anything was going on inside, but if you watch their video on youtube, the guy states "about three years" and that was as of Dec 07, so almost five now.

I did see bottles of the whiskey in the liquor stores, but didn't buy any. My inner skeptic took over I guess. I though if the building isn't open, even if they are making the stuff inside, where are the rick houses? Where is the bottling plant? Why does the label give a DSP number but also say "bottled at"? There were two products, a blended rye and a straight rye. I don't remember the exact numbers, but both were on the pricey side, with the straight being the more expensive of the two. I usually splurge on vacation, but the price + my doubts about the product had me following my wife over to the tequila section instead.

All that said, it is an interesting venture for lots of reasons. One big question, as Chuck mentioned, will be how well their own juice matches what they admit to be whiskey "imported from back East" My in-laws are moving to Park City, so I'll be able to keep tabs on the place, if only to see if they survive. Additional information posted here is appreciated because their website sure doesn't say much!

[cowdery]

My skepticism about any of these guys who bring out a product made by someone else--and I won't single out High West here--is whether or not they ever will sell something they actually made, and whether or not they even intend to or, while they may "intend" to, whether or not their business model, especially their capitalization, will ever permit it. Conecuh Ridge Whiskey is the perfect example. It has been around for about seven years now and nothing has changed. Their product is still 100% made in Kentucky by one of the usual suspects. Perhaps an even better example is KBD, which distills nothing and has for 20 years been promising that it would "soon."

But perhaps the most remarkable thing is how many people, even despite knowing the facts, believe them.

[kickert]

My skepticism about any of these guys who bring out a product made by someone else--and I won't single out High West here--is whether or not they ever will sell something they actually made, and whether or not they even intend to or, while they may "intend" to, whether or not their business model, especially their capitalization, will ever permit it. Conecuh Ridge Whiskey is the perfect example. It has been around for about seven years now and nothing has changed. Their product is still 100% made in Kentucky by one of the usual suspects. Perhaps an even better example is KBD, which distills nothing and has for 20 years been promising that it would "soon."

But perhaps the most remarkable thing is how many people, even despite knowing the facts, believe them.

We regularly have people doing the Bourbon Trail drop in at our distillery. Just last week I had a guy come in who was trying to find the distillery where Rowan's Creek and Noah's Mill was made. I hated to burst his bourbon bubble, but I had to tell him the truth. I ended up sending him to HH.

[sailor22]

I would have to say that after seeing the two stills at KBD - a large column and a smaller pot - that they have put an awful lot of money into the facilities if they didn't "intend to".

A small start up faces two choices. Either borrow a boatload of $ and bring in a huge team to build the still and infrastructure or do it slowly as profits permit. Choosing the second will most assuredly progress at a much slower pace than you hope for, but with any luck it will help keep you in business in the long run because you will have a much smaller debt load to service.

Good on ya KBD - hoping to see that new make on your site soon. I haven't run out of patience yet - not by a long shot.