Whiskey Trails 17 Year Old Bourbon

[Virus_Of_Life]

I just noticed then when checking Binny's site for something. Anyone heard of know anything about this Whiskey Trails 17yo? Joe, can you give is any info, at least what is on the label maybe?

[tommyboy38]

IIRC, it's some overpriced HH whiskey.

[Virus_Of_Life]

IIRC, it's some overpriced HH whiskey.

[loose proton]

IIRC, it's some overpriced HH whiskey.

[Josh]

I doubt the brand is owned by HH, it sounds too corny to be an HH brand, Fighting Cock not withstanding.

Very well could have been distilled at HH, tho. Oh, if we only had a regularly posting member who works at Binny's. :searching: :stickpoke:

[CorvallisCracker]

I doubt the brand is owned by HH, it sounds too corny to be an HH brand, Fighting Cock not withstanding.

[BigRich]

You've peaked my curiousity...

[fishnbowljoe]

I've seen this at Binny's, and at a couple of stores while out hunting last Saturday. Not sure where the juice is from, but I believe it is bottled by KBD. Joe

[White Dog]

I've seen this at Binny's, and at a couple of stores while out hunting last Saturday. Not sure where the juice is from, but I believe it is bottled by KBD. Joe

Anything bottled by KBD comes from Heaven Hill. They rarely admit that, but it's true. What's nice about KBD's Vintage 17yr Bourbon is that it comes from HH's original Bardstown distillery, which burned down in 1996, rather than the Bernheim site, which is where all HH is now made.

[Josh]

Anything bottled by KBD comes from Heaven Hill. They rarely admit that, but it's true. What's nice about KBD's Vintage 17yr Bourbon is that it comes from HH's original Bardstown distillery, which burned down in 1996, rather than the Bernheim site, which is where all HH is now made.

You sure about this? I've had some KBD products that had some very Bartonesque notes.

[wadewood]

Anything bottled by KBD comes from Heaven Hill. They rarely admit that, but it's true. What's nice about KBD's Vintage 17yr Bourbon is that it comes from HH's original Bardstown distillery, which burned down in 1996, rather than the Bernheim site, which is where all HH is now made.

[White Dog]

What is true is that KBD has bottled a lot of HH whiskey under their brands or other for other brands they bottle. But your statement "anything bottled" is wrong.

Then which other distillery are they sourcing from? All the actual Willet Distillery stocks are long gone. If my statement is "wrong," then the Kulsveens are lying, since they're my source for that information.

[Josh]

Then which other distillery are they sourcing from? All the actual Willet Distillery stocks are long gone. If my statement is "wrong," then the Kulsveens are lying, since they're my source for that information.

The possibilites are nearly endless. There are a lot of distilleries that sell bulk whiskey. Tom Moore is another obvious choice, being in Bardstown and being backed up by my tastebuds. There's also LDI in Lawrenceburg, IN, CDMK in Owensboro, KY, the list goes on and on. It seems likely that they buy from multiple sources. Heaven Hill is without a doubt one of those sources, maybe even the biggest one. But it's likely not the only one.

[doubleblank]

Whiskeymen don't lie..........all the time anyway. HH is the source for the vast majority of their bottlings. Particularly their widely distributed stuff. But they have bottled some limited release/single barrel bottlings from other distilleries. Many on this site have visited their rickhouses and tasted/selected barrels that were not HH.

Randy

[White Dog]

The most frustrating aspect of tasting and collecting Bourbon is the lack of transparency by the producers. What's also frustrating is the lack of factual evidence for statements on this board. While you all feel that there are other sources for KBD, no one has shown any hard evidence. If Wadewood and Doubleblank have definitive information as to other sources, then come forward and say so. "Many on this site..." Who are the people that have seen other barrels at KBD, and if so, what distilleries were the barrels from? I raise these points in the interest of knowing the actual authorship of what I'm buying and consuming.

[DeanSheen]

These guys are not steering you wrong. Search the site and you will find the 'evidence' you desire.

[callmeox]

I believe that there's an agreement (either expressed or implied) that when purchasing a barrel from KBD to be bottled under their Willett private label, you cannot say in public what the source of the whiskey was. I am aware of at least one instance when a barrel purchase was in jeopardy due to breaching confidentiality.

The net/net is that KBD gets bulk whiskey from suppliers who will tell you to your face that they don't play in the bulk market. Yes, it is hush hush, but that how they want it to be.

Expecting a public declaration of sources here is asking a bit much if only to prove a point to an anonymous poster on an internet message board. The people here know what they know and I respect their knowledge.

[doubleblank]

I have been in the KBD rickhouse and seen barrels from just about every major distiller there. What I don't know is where all those barrels went. I do know of where some of them went. So there really is no answer to your Q about what's in each and every bottle that KBD does. And unfortunately, that's the way they want it.

Randy

[White Dog]

I don't feel that the people on the site are trying to steer me wrong. My biggest frustration is with the bottlers themselves. After tasting and collecting wine for years, I started to get bit by the Whiskey bug. The more I delved into it, the more Bourbon production appears full of deceit. No one will state their actual mashbill with percentages, no one will tell me what char # is being used... It's all so much B.S..

Fine wine and spirits should be enjoyed within a certain context. An honest narrative helps to inform my enjoyment. If I'm going to enjoy a product, I want to now who made the damn thing. And since I can't get that from most, I'll stick to Austin Nichols, Four Roses and Scotch. At least Austin Nichols and Four Roses declare that they're the actual friggin' distilleries.

[callmeox]

In a nutshell, that's the rub with non-distiller producers and a lack of transparency.

They don't want to piss off their suppliers and have to play by their rules.

[White Dog]

In a nutshell, that's the rub with non-distiller producers and a lack of transparency.

They don't want to piss off their suppliers and have to play by their rules.

The distiller producers are also full of s--t. "Produced and Bottled by Evan Williams Distillery" or "Produced and Bottled by Elijah Craig Distillery" are loads of manure. There is no actual Evan Williams Distillery, it all comes from HH. They also list Bardstown as the city of origin, when they're now making it in Louisville. It may be bottled in Bardstown, but so what? Same goes with loads of others. Why consumers don't demand the truth astounds me. It also astounds me that the TTB allows such labeling.

[Rughi]

Wow. That's a lot of anger for a commodity that's so pleasing to the senses.

Are you so sure about the provenance of any bourbon distillery, though? Austin Nichols didn't even have a distillery until the '70s, and brought in its juice from several unnamed sources just like KBD does now. In 1997 Jim Murray wrote about their latest vatting (of the standard Wild Turkey, presumably) being 4,000 barrels of Ancient Age with 20,000 of their own juice. Did Austin Nichols completely cease buying it in since then? Those who know aren't saying.

I think of the Kentucky good ol' boys as mischievous fellows who delight in pulling one over on outsiders while they go about running their businesses.

At least with straight bourbon we know what's in it - bourbon and water: no color, no sherry or port that just happened to be sloshing in the bottom of a used barrel, no undisclosed fermented fruit. Canadian Whiskies are allowed even to have additives that aren't even distilled that they need not disclose, as discussed in another thread.

To paraphrase that great communicator Charlie Papazian

"Relax. Don't Worry. Have a bourbon."

And welcome to the forum.

Roger

[ErichPryde]

Heh. now I know why the 1997 Old #8 was so terrible! thanks for that. :cool:

I will say, whitedog has a strong point. One thing I've always hated and loved about bourbon hunting is the lack of concise labeling. It makes things slightly mysterious when you are dusty hunting and trying to determine who distilled the ancient bottle of Weller you're holding, but it makes things frustrating and even disappointing when you can't find any similarity, bottle to bottle, of something like Elijah craig.

Wow. That's a lot of anger for a commodity that's so pleasing to the senses.

Are you so sure about the provenance of any bourbon distillery, though? Austin Nichols didn't even have a distillery until the '70s, and brought in its juice from several unnamed sources just like KBD does now. In 1997 Jim Murray wrote about their latest vatting (of the standard Wild Turkey, presumably) being 4,000 barrels of Ancient Age with 20,000 of their own juice. Did Austin Nichols completely cease buying it in since then? Those who know aren't saying.

I think of the Kentucky good ol' boys as mischievous fellows who delight in pulling one over on outsiders while they go about running their businesses.

At least with straight bourbon we know what's in it - bourbon and water: no color, no sherry or port that just happened to be sloshing in the bottom of a used barrel, no undisclosed fermented fruit. Canadian Whiskies are allowed even to have additives that aren't even distilled that they need not disclose, as discussed in another thread.

To paraphrase that great communicator Charlie Papazian

"Relax. Don't Worry. Have a bourbon."

And welcome to the forum.

Roger

[cowdery]

The rule is: nobody sells bulk whiskey except when they do.

They all do it when they they have excess. Most will sell you white dog.

At this time, only Buffalo Trace actively denies doing it. Barton did but apparently no longer does, since BT took over.

Brown-Forman sells white dog to other producers, such as Heaven Hill and Diageo, and probably would sell white dog to anyone if the deal was right.

Though Beam won't confirm it, there's evidence they do the same thing.

Heaven Hill has a long history of contract distilling, contract distilling with aging, sale of bulk aged whiskey, private label bottling, just about anything you can imagine. Brand is the bigger part of their business but bulk is significant.

Ever since the sale, Four Roses has had a long-term production agreement with Diageo. Prettty much anybody who has excess capacity has to look at bulk sales.

Seagram's didn't generally sell the whiskey it made in Lawrenceburg, Indiana, but Angostura has since it took over. Angostura bought the Medley plant in Owensboro to service the worldwide demand for bourbon, but corporate problems have kept that project on the drawing board.

Since they have warehouses I assume KBD buys some white dog in barrels and ages it themselves. You can assume all or virtually all of that comes from Heaven Hill. They probably get most of the aged whiskey they buy from Heaven Hill too. But when opportunity knocks, they answer, so any absolute statement about Heaven Hill as KBD's source is wrong, even though if you had to bet on the source of any given product, Heaven Hill would be your best bet.

[fishnbowljoe]

Whitedog, I'm going to add my two cents here, partly as a moderator, and partly as a semi-knowledgeable member.

First: If the Kulsveens are your source of information, why are you asking questions about where they get their juice from? If you don't trust the information you're getting from them, what makes you think you'll get any better answers here?

Second: Who are you and where are you from? You have posted nothing in the new member thread, and your profile is basically blank.

Third: As a new member, you have joined our site and started off by seemingly questioning the knowlege and integrity of a couple of very knowledgable and respected members. To quote a line from a movie, "You have no idea what you're dealing with."

What gives? As a new member, I tried to get a feel for things before I said anything, or asked any questions about things I didn't understand in the crazy world of bourbon. Believe me when I say that I was set straight on more than one occasion. You have joined this site, and seem to have come in here with a bit of a chip on your shoulder or like you have something to prove. Not a very good first impression IMHO.

We have members of this site from every walk of life. Doctors, lawyers, white collar, blue collar, students, retirees, teachers, etc... We have members who work in the business. People who work for large liquor stores/chains, people who work at distilleries, owners of distilleries/brands, master distillers, writers and historians of bourbon, and so on... Just my opinion here, but if I were you, I'd be a bit more condescending with my questions and seeming accusations/observations.

I apologize if I have offended you. That was not my intent. Believe me, I could have been much worse. There are some members who could have given you a much harder time. If you are a sincere person, here is some advice. Fill out your profile with some more information. Let us get to know you a little bit, and please get to know us too. Be open minded. Even if you ask questions, remember, you may not always like the answers. Things are not always what they appear to be in the bourbon world. To be very honest, I really can't tell you why that is. Sometimes you just have to accept that, that's just the way it is.

Good Luck. Joe

Whiskeymen don't lie..........all the time anyway. HH is the source for the vast majority of their bottlings. Particularly their widely distributed stuff. But they have bottled some limited release/single barrel bottlings from other distilleries. Many on this site have visited their rickhouses and tasted/selected barrels that were not HH.

Randy