Whiskey Trails 17 Year Old Bourbon

[Lost Pollito]

Thanks to Joe, and Chuck. I'd say the chip on the shoulder has stopped me from responding...until now. Fill out that profile and settle in. Couldn't b a better place in the world to learn. Welcome to the board. There are a ton of contractual deals that don't allow full disclosure, but once you know the calling cards, provenance becomes second nature.

[p_elliott]

Welcome to the grown up world of business, bourbon is a commodity like any other commodity it's bought, sold and traded. Deals are not always for public disclosure. If you think this is unique I had 2 Chrysler cars that were made by Mitzubitzi so what is the difference. I would heed Fishnbowljoe advice. We are normally a very welcoming group unless we are attacked

[ErichPryde]

Welcome to the grown up world of business, bourbon is a commodity like any other commodity it's bought, sold and traded. Deals are not always for public disclosure. If you think this is unique I had 2 Chrysler cars that were made by Mitzubitzi so what is the difference. I would heed Fishnbowljoe advice. We are normally a very welcoming group unless we are attacked

[White Dog]

Wow.

Well, first off, Fishbowljoe, please read the whole thread. It wasn't that I didn't originally trust the info from the Kulsveens(Although I no longer trust it), it was that when other posters said that the info was wrong, they provided no evidence to the contrary. I asked that if they had other info, then please come forward with reasons to the contrary. I would simply like to know who actually distills what I'm putting into my body. (You may inhale the fumes, P_Elliot, but you don't drink your car, whether it's a Mitsubishi or a Chrysler.)

Secondly, who did I attack? When 2 members said my info was wrong, they didn't provide anything to back that up. If my information is wrong, that's fine and I'd like to know, but please provide some evidence.

Also, I'm well aware as to who some of the members are. I have the upmost respect for Mr. Cowdery, for instance. He's one of the few voices in Bourbon to call for transparency in whiskey labeling, which is what I've been asking for in this thread. (When he took on a certain midwest Rye producer for playing fast and loose with labeling, he had an instant fan in me.) It's funny, I complain about entities like Fortune Brands and Brown-Forman not telling us the truth on their labels, and I'm the bad guy??

Back to Fishbowljoe, please re-read the thread. I feel that I personally attacked no one. I simply asked for posters back up their claims. As for your comment, "You have no idea what you're dealing with." Yikes, who are you, the secret service? It's a website forum. Take it easy.

Look, if you guys don't like "straight" talk on "Straight Bourbon," then fine. I'll look elsewhere for people who want to know where their food and drink comes from. Sorry for rustling your feathers.

Whitedog, I'm going to add my two cents here, partly as a moderator, and partly as a semi-knowledgeable member.

First: If the Kulsveens are your source of information, why are you asking questions about where they get their juice from? If you don't trust the information you're getting from them, what makes you think you'll get any better answers here?

Second: Who are you and where are you from? You have posted nothing in the new member thread, and your profile is basically blank.

Third: As a new member, you have joined our site and started off by seemingly questioning the knowlege and integrity of a couple of very knowledgable and respected members. To quote a line from a movie, "You have no idea what you're dealing with."

What gives? As a new member, I tried to get a feel for things before I said anything, or asked any questions about things I didn't understand in the crazy world of bourbon. Believe me when I say that I was set straight on more than one occasion. You have joined this site, and seem to have come in here with a bit of a chip on your shoulder or like you have something to prove. Not a very good first impression IMHO.

We have members of this site from every walk of life. Doctors, lawyers, white collar, blue collar, students, retirees, teachers, etc... We have members who work in the business. People who work for large liquor stores/chains, people who work at distilleries, owners of distilleries/brands, master distillers, writers and historians of bourbon, and so on... Just my opinion here, but if I were you, I'd be a bit more condescending with my questions and seeming accusations/observations.

I apologize if I have offended you. That was not my intent. Believe me, I could have been much worse. There are some members who could have given you a much harder time. If you are a sincere person, here is some advice. Fill out your profile with some more information. Let us get to know you a little bit, and please get to know us too. Be open minded. Even if you ask questions, remember, you may not always like the answers. Things are not always what they appear to be in the bourbon world. To be very honest, I really can't tell you why that is. Sometimes you just have to accept that, that's just the way it is.

Good Luck. Joe

[fishnbowljoe]

I will clarify a couple of my statements whitedog. I didn't say you attacked anyone. I said you called in to question the knowledge and integrity of a couple of members. When I said "You have no idea what you're dealing with.", it was not a threat. I meant that we have members who know a lot about KBD and have a good relationship with Drew and/or Evan. We have members who have sampled more than a few barrels at KBD and have picked out their own barrels for bottling. FWIW, we even have a member who works there. Now maybe you understand the situation a little better, and why a couple of us responded the way we did. You started out by jumping in with both feet. Most folks try and get a feel for the site before they post something that could considered (right or wrong) as controversial.

Maybe you should post an intro in the New Members thread. A little more info in your profile wouldn't hurt either. For all we know, maybe you work for Beam. That's a joke. The lack of transparency or complete truth about some bourbons is frustrating and fascinating at the same time. That, along with other mysteries and lore are some of the things that drew me to boubon in the first place. Oh, it tastes pretty darn good too!. :grin: The sad thing is, is that there are many questions that we will probably never know the answers to. Like Roger said, maybe the good ol' boys get a kick out of putting one over on outsiders. Cheers! Joe

[birdman1099]

Can we get back on topic?????:grin:

Has anyone had this bottling. I heard it was a private bottling from KBD. But they elected to put it in the Noahs Mill bottle with this label instead of the Willett Label. (wanted to be different).

It is a cask strength, non-chill filtered 17 yr old...... I'm intrigued.:skep:

Now, who has tried this?????? Joe?????

[DeanSheen]

Welcome to the grown up world of business, bourbon is a commodity like any other commodity it's bought, sold and traded. Deals are not always for public disclosure. If you think this is unique I had 2 Chrysler cars that were made by Mitzubitzi so what is the difference. I would heed Fishnbowljoe advice. We are normally a very welcoming group unless we are attacked

[Lost Pollito]

Can we get back on topic?????:grin:

Has anyone had this bottling. I heard it was a private bottling from KBD. But they elected to put it in the Noahs Mill bottle with this label instead of the Willett Label. (wanted to be different).

It is a cask strength, non-chill filtered 17 yr old...... I'm intrigued.:skep:

Now, who has tried this?????? Joe?????

[nblair]

Yep. I've tried it, and thought it was quite nice. Lots of cherry, eucalyptus, and the right amount of oak to balance it out. Kind of a delicious sleeper on the shelves.:grin:

Is this only available at Binny's? I haven't seen it anywhere in KY.

[birdman1099]

I found mine in central Ill.

I believe it was selected and bottled by a distributor in the Chicago Area. So I'd assume Chicago area got all of them.

[Lost Pollito]

I found mine in central Ill.

I believe it was selected and bottled by a distributor in the Chicago Area. So I'd assume Chicago area got all of them.

You are correct Sir. They also have a nice bottle of Knockando, and a great young Laphroaig. All at cask strength.

[p_elliott]

Yeah, I had three LeBaron's. Great cars.

-end jack

Mine were a Conquest tecnica and a Conquest TSI.

[p_elliott]

Welcome to the grown up world of business, bourbon is a commodity like any other commodity it's bought, sold and traded. Deals are not always for public disclosure. If you think this is unique I had 2 Chrysler cars that were made by Mitzubitzi so what is the difference. I would heed Fishnbowljoe advice. We are normally a very welcoming group unless we are attacked

Mine were a Conquest Tecnica and a Conquest TSI

[birdman1099]

I cracked mine open today. It need a splash of water to loosen it up. Your right on with the cherry...... and the spice.... whoa.....:bigeyes: This is really good.

What is it going for up in Chicago? I found mine for $80. I'd drink it all day at $60-65....:grin:

[birdman1099]

I know that this stuff is likely HH, but I am not entirely convinced. To me, it drinks a lot like a 4 roses....now I do not know if 4 roses would sell some barrels or not.... (as Chuck says... no one sells bulk whiskey except when they do.):grin:

Joe, I know you've had this... what do you think????

[Rughi]

Heaven Hill has rickhouses in many locations around Nelson county (beyond as well?).

Given that and the fact that Heaven Hill probably has half of the world's supply of 8+ year old bourbon (at least, they did in 2004 and we have no reason to think it's dramatically different now), wouldn't it be more likely that there are many distinct profiles to be found, and that the strongly HH-identifiable are put into the HH labels?

It wouldn't surprise me if the Whiskey Trails has a character more like one expects from Four Roses and is a Heaven Hill product.

As an aside, if I had the chance to job shadow a distillery worker to gain more insight into how whiskey is made, it would be the warehouseman not the distiller I would choose first.

Roger

[Josh]

I know that this stuff is likely HH, but I am not entirely convinced. To me, it drinks a lot like a 4 roses....now I do not know if 4 roses would sell some barrels or not.... (as Chuck says... no one sells bulk whiskey except when they do.):grin:

Joe, I know you've had this... what do you think????

Given that and the fact that Heaven Hill probably has half of the world's supply of 8+ year old bourbon (at least, they did in 2004 and we have no reason to think it's dramatically different now), wouldn't it be more likely that there are many distinct profiles to be found, and that the strongly HH-identifiable are put into the HH labels?

Roger

Another scenario might be that Diageo had an excess of Four Roses-made bourbon, and sold it off to whoever.

I doubt we'll ever know, really. But it is fun to try to puzzle it out!

[OscarV]

Whilst price doesn't influence my buying I'd still like to try it before I pay the 80 bucks.

It does sound interesting.

[birdman1099]

I jumped back into this bottle..... Interesting to say the least. I'm having a hard time pinning this one down.

I did notice the proof. 112.3 That sound like a 4 roses barrel proof to me. and didn't 4 roses just come out with a 17 yr cask strength version this year as well:skep: :skep: :skep: :skep: :skep:

Oh well... who cares.... I like it !!!!:grin:

[drew_kulsveen]

Anything bottled by KBD comes from Heaven Hill. They rarely admit that, but it's true. What's nice about KBD's Vintage 17yr Bourbon is that it comes from HH's original Bardstown distillery, which burned down in 1996, rather than the Bernheim site, which is where all HH is now made.

First, you know absolutely nothing about what we do and who we source from; it really doesn't matter since it doesn't concern you or anyone else on this board. How can you make a statement like that and expect anyone to believe you since you have no facts to back it up. If you are going to make a statement be sure it is true and accurate or I will make you look like a true novice that you are.

[CorvallisCracker]

First, you know absolutely nothing about what we do and who we source from; it really doesn't matter since it doesn't concern you or anyone else on this board.

[Josh]

Some of us would like to know where our bourbon is made, and it isn't your place to tell us that we shouldn't.

Well put. This level of hostility from a producer towards a boatload of positive attention is puzzling.

I don't buy KBD products for a number of reasons, and you just validated one of them. Thank you.

I do buy KBD products when I can. Maybe it's time I stopped.

[dougdog]

I would simply like to know who actually distills what I'm putting into my body.

Such a noble cause... So, are you saying that there is a distilled product out there that is harmful to your body, you want to avoid consuming it and the labels are “hiding the facts”? And if so, whose is it?

Otherwise...what does it matter?

Better bring the “facts” when you answer this one...you must know something that I don’t know?

But why stop at distilled products...do you consider everything you eat and drink and apply.

Do you smoke cigars?

Are there perfumes and dyes in your laundry detergent???

Do you eat "organic" produce?

Anyway, read the labels, if they don't give you confidence in what you are buying, don't buy it. In this "information age" it is not hard to delve into facts. Also, if you spend enough time on this forum you can find what you are looking for…And, if it aint in print here, there is someone who can fill you in…it’s just what they tell you won’t be able to be posted on the web. Please don’t confuse secrecy for privacy. Like Chuck said…no one sells it until they do. That should give you a starting point on how things work.

Privacy in the transaction is key to the business deal…like mentioned already, bourbon industry is a big business and like in any business, they are all strange bedfellows. The numbers of products on the market that are “Shadow” produced are countless and bourbon isn’t the only one…I just bought a refrigerator lately…need any other examples?...didn’t think so…

At the end of the day, we all have the power to "vote" with our dollars...if suppliers/packagers of any product are "listening" to the sound of falling sales and marketing discovers that sales would increase with better contents description information, fuller disclosure and truth on labels, better labels will come. (Is fuller a word? LOL) Oh yea...one other thing...whiskey labels trade back and forth in the drink companies like kids at school with baseball cards...And then we have corporations inside of corporations inside of...well you know...on and on...

But, at the end of the day, I think Bourbon sales are increasing…I don’t think they can hear anyone talking about labels right now…I think they are listening to the sound in the cash register as they learn how much any one bottle of “special edition bourbon” can extract from your wallet…need any examples of that?...didn’t think so.

Calm down…drink lightly, there is alcohol in bourbon, moderate amounts can cause poor health and too much of it can kill you…I’ll stay tuned for your list of other things in bourbon that are more harmful than the alcohol can be…

dog

BTW, I drink whiskey if it tastes good, not because it comes from one superior source or if the label is correct and truthful...show me your best dram and I'll show you a version from that same distillery/paper label corporation bottler/distiller that would make a vulture vomit...no telling what the labels on each bottle might say.

[Tom Troland]

Mr. Kulsveen is quite right that few people know the origins of the bourbons his firm sells. However, his intemperate, even childish, reply to a board member is shocking. As is his contention that the provenence of his products should be of no interest to board members. Many of us enjoy knowing where our whiskies come from. That's part of the fun. Can Mr. Kulsveen not imagine this interest?

And as for knowing the truth, I do wish KBD would be more truthful in their labeling and website information. Are we really to believe that the Willett Pot Still Reserve is from a pot still (neglecting the doubler that all distillers use)? And what about those hills where Noah's Mill is handmade? I don't know of a legal distillery in Kentucky that is very far up in the hills. Even the name KBD suggests something that is not true, that actual distillation goes on at their site. (Perhaps someday it will.)

Much of KBD publicity coyly suggests (without actually saying so) that the whiskies they sell are of their own creation. Why not just be honest and say, "We source our bourbons and ryes from the finest distillers in Kentucky"? KBD would be acting in the tradition of respected wine negociants in France. And it would be the truth.

[dougdog]

One other thing White dog,

Wanting to get to know you better...

Have you purchased your own barrel of whiskey yet?

If you have...how many?

What was the choice of barrels from a row of ten or so, previously selected by someone else? or was it soley your choice from any barrel in the inventory.

Did ya get it bottled the way you wanted it ? ie; unchillfiltered and cask strength? Or, did they water it down and srtip the fat out of it to meet a label requirement?

Did any of them get good reviews posted from your peers or industry leaders?

I'd sure like to taste some...

Got any?

Dougdog...the leader of the dog pack...HEEEEEEEEEEE...HEEEEEEEEEE!!!

OOOPS!...forgot the invitation...please come join me and the other SB'ers on my front porch at this upcoming Kentucky Bourbon Festival...I have a little get-together on Friday afternoon, you can read more about it in the Bourbon Social section of the forum...hope you can join us!

I have more than just KBD whiskey to offer...as not to offend...

In the meantime, learn how to piss with the big dogs here and quit peeing with the puppies...C ya in September...

Don't I sound so big and bad just sittin' behind this screen and typing what ever I want?

Heee heee...LOL

BTW...do you drink Beam White label?