Moving Away From The High End

[Gillman]

Looking at my recent purchases, they included Weller Antique, ETL and VOB. On other occasions it might be Rare Breed, Four Roses, EC 12 or one the Heaven Hill-branded labels, or Fighting Cock, or something else in that price range. I've tried many (far from all) of the limited editions, experimentals, 15 years plus and other more costly bottles. And I find now I am not inclined to them generally speaking. I get the same satisfaction, sometimes more, from the regular bottlings. It's not that I don't see the extra quality the expensive bottlings often (not always) have, I just find it's not worth the extra cost. (To the extent I want variety and increased quality beyond what I buy, I vat them to get that, but I am trying to make a more general comment). I think a lot of it has to do with age, that beyond 10 years in the wood or so I find the taste generally not appealing. A bourbon or rye aged from 4-8 years generally seems just right.

Gary

[cigarnv]

Gary, I find myself in the same place... the GTS, PHC, etc. sit on the shelf as I enjoy Weller 12, EWSB, OBH, VOB, etc. on a regular basis. As I mentioned in another thread today I get caught up in the hunt for the latest and greatest while getting the most enjoyment from what would best be described as "pedestrian" products... here I speak both of spirits and cigars.

For the most part I have begun passing on all but a few super bottlings with most purchases being in the under $35 range... many below $20.

[smokinjoe]

Count me in as a believer, too. I'll still pick up the higher priced items, but with nowhere near the frequency and quantity as in the past. Now, it's the lower cost, everyday drinkers that have the most appeal to me. Usually, when I make my yearly pilgrimages to KBF and Sampler, I come back with dozens of bottles of pricey bourbon. I did pick up a few, but passed on many that I would have taken without hesitation in previous years. But, in reviewing what I brought back last week, it's clear my priorities have changed. The inexpensive gems were what made my cut: Old Fitz BIB, JTS Brown BIB, Old HH 6 yr BIB, Old Bourbon Hollow BIB, OGD 114, and VOB BIB....All, way under $20 (save the 114--$23), and all being thoroughly enjoyed, now.

[Gillman]

I buy all those mentioned too. I realise Rare Breed and maybe EC 12 and ETL are >$23.00 a bottle but those are the exceptions and it's just a few dollars more (plus with Rare Breed you get a high proof). But as for anything from the later $30 upwards I almost always give it a pass now. Not to say I don't enjoy them when I have the opportunity (Gazebo, friends' bottles here) but "inexpensive gems" states it perfectly, it's where I'm at.

Gray

N.B. I should mention also Old Forester 100 proof - can anything be more perfect as bourbon? Probably, but factoring the cost-benefit ratio, I find generally the answer is no.

[BourbonJoe]

I have not yet moved away from the high end. This is probably because I live in a control state and do not have access to them unless I go to Kentucky. I drink regular stuff but I also like the high end stuff. It is usually very limited and I also prefer a little wood on my bourbon anyway, so I like the older bottlings. At my age, money is not the prime factor in my bourbon buying so I drink them all.

Joe :usflag:

[ggilbertva]

Gary, I've had this conversation with a number of fellow enthusiasts where I state that while I have all these high end bourbons sitting in the bunker or in the "open bottle" cabinet and almost by default, I reach for an OWA, VOB or many of my low cost dusties. It's a strange phenomenon where we chase after high end bottles and then drink the mid to low shelf stuff. I'm glad I'm not alone. Doesn't mean I'm not interested in the limited release offerings but I'm with Joe, my purchase frequency is much less that it was in the past.

[DeanSheen]

Depends on what we call the high end. I'm a big fan of the mid-range products say $25 - $40. I'm not much for many of the lower end selections for example HH BIB and JTS Brown BIB I've had bottles of in my house and choked them down. I want to like the cheap stuff but my floor seems to be regular BT.

If I had regular access to dusties I would drink a lot more lower end products.

The next couple years will be interesting for the high end. I think the ceiling is getting pretty close these days.

[Gillman]

Robert I hear you but I find Fighting Cock (current issue of course), Jim Beam Rye or Rittenhouse 100, Weller SR and Antique, and OF 100 (which I think is around $25 or less) very worthy. Some of the HH-branded bourbons, or say EW Black, are pretty good too. I sometimes buy in the price range you mentioned, but can get disappointments there too. E.g., for some years I found some of the Buffalo Trace products just not to my taste, that earthy thing they sometimes get. I would however consider the range you mentioned included for my main point, but so many bourbons and ryes today are costing way more than $40.00. I rarely buy them now.

Gary

[SBOmarc]

Adding my voice to this trend. I think in my case it was "forced" upon me when I made the decision to start mt business. It was economic reality, yet I found myself looking for the value pours more and more. Not just due to cost, but the taste also.

[sailor22]

It depends on the mood I'm in. All the lower priced gems mentioned most would classify as pretty easy drinkers - not particularly challenging pours. Very often I'm not in the mood to sip barrel proof or any big pour for that matter. A bunker of oldies is where I turn for my tasty easy drinkers - 70's and 80's Old Taylor, Eagle Rare 101, Old Grand Dad, Dant, and Old Forester Bib. Current release stuff includes ET Lee, Blantons, JTS Brown Bib, Virginia Gent 90, Van Winkle 10/90, 4 Roses SB and Old Bourbon Hollow.

Somehow I seem to want to save the really high end stuff to share at special times with special friends - and that just doesn't happen often enough to keep up with my rate of purchase.

[DeanSheen]

Gary: Thanks for getting my head on straight.

"Rittenhouse 100, Weller SR and Antique, and OF 100 (which I think is around $25 or less)"

Yes, I like all of those and they do tip in right at $20 or so. I guess I need to change my number from $25 to $20. I've still not tried the Kickin Chicken and I think the BTOY was the first time I had EWB.

[SMOWK]

Somehow I seem to want to save the really high end stuff to share at special times with special friends - and that just doesn't happen often enough to keep up with my rate of purchase.

My thoughts exactly.

[Joshua]

I agree. I have some great $50+ bourbons, but I rarely drink them. Most nights if I want a healthy pour, I don't want to go to the Pappy 20 or pop the Parkers. The cost really can really influence the ability to appreciate it.

On trips before, say to Binny's, I would end up with Pappy 15, VWFRR, and things of the like. Coming home from KBF I ended up with a whole lot of Aincient Age, Very Old Barton, Four Roses 1B (Under $30 a bottle), and Everette's Weller SR. The Barton and Weller were handles, so even more value there.

I have to impress expensive bourbons. Really try to taste them, dissect the nose and what hits my mouth, take notes in my journal, try different glasses... I can't focus on anything but the bourbon. I feel I owe it a certain level of respect. While this is fine, or downright enjoyable, some days... it's not something I care to engage in every time I want bourbon.

I let value pours impress me. A big pour, not as picky about what glass, not as picky about how my nose and tastes are- I just drink it. Some of the best experiences with bourbon are when I pour a large glass, and sit outside with friends, or watch a movie, or play overly-complicated board games. I'm not thinking about the bourbon, I'm just letting it be what it is. Good whiskey for a good price.

I believe sampling the high end bourbons, or dusty bottles, or VERY dusty bourbons has really allowed me to understand bourbon. Age, distillery, mash bill, storage, how everything has worked together to form the juice. Once I really started figuring out all of the things that make great bourbon great, I found it easier to understand what makes "pedestrian" bourbon great.

[Gillman]

Definitely agree with all comments made about dusties, but they are not available to everyone and my initial remarks did not factor them. But true enough at the modest price many still can find them for, they are great and Josh is exactly right that tasting them helps parse the palate of bourbon from a 360 perspective, it really does.

(I always enjoy the pictures people put up of those finds but I wish more taste notes were posted).

Gary

[nor02lei]

Interesting thread Gary. I do agree partly with many others on this one. I think middle shelf stuff is the most price worthy and the type I drink mostly. God examples are Dickel 12, JDSS, OGD 114, Rittenhouse BIB, ORVW 10/107, WT 8, 12 and EC 12. Off cause the picture are a bit different here. We don’t have much good low shelf’s here as all those BIBs you have and some of your low shelf’s like Rittenhoude BIB and Dickel 12 are middle shelf’s here with a price about 10 euro over brands like black Beam or JD for example. I do like to drink expensive top shelf stuff when I am in the mood for it. At the moment I haven’t been in the mood that much for uncut for example so I have stayed a bit low on that for a while. I do also like to have American whiskey with desserts and cakes so I have to shoes the ones that are suitable in those cases.

As a summery I would say it’s the mood, price worth, and snack suitableness in first hand and the wallet in second hand that are conclusive.

Leif

[OscarV]

I'm not much for many of the lower end selections for example HH BIB and JTS Brown BIB I've had bottles of in my house and choked them down.

Agreed.

If I can't drink it then it's a waste of 8 to 12 bucks.

I have been thru all these low priced ones and I have given some a 2nd chance but I just don't like them.

I have bunkered up a good selection, that is a good selection in my opinion.

I have a lot of high end 4R's, WT's, PHC, ORVW, PVW, LWL, GTS etc.

I used to like to "make them last" by getting some cheap or I should say low priced bottles but to me they turn out to be a waste of money.

[camduncan]

Gary, I couldn't agree more with your initial post. Granted the Aussie price point differs greatly - $25-$50 AU would be lower end. But it encompases great products like Jim Beam Rye, Nelson County (HH), Makers, Evan Williams, Elijah Craig 12, Cougar, Buffalo Trace & Blantons Special Reserve to name a few.

Proof varies in all of these, (don't forget the 74 proof products we have here to reduce taxes) and they are available at multiple stores in most suburbs and towns.

I love trying limited releases and high end products, but they often don't make it to our market, so have to be imported at great expense (often 2-3 times the pruchase price of the bottle,) plus, if it's a limited release bottle, I dislike that I can't purchase it again at a future date.

In saying all this, I'm still a slave to my passion and hobby:skep: :bigeyes: :grin:

[kickert]

I enjoy being able to have a pour without worrying about the cost. With things like GTS, Pappy, etc., while I really enjoy them, I feel like I need a special occasion to pour them. I would much rather have a pour like Ritt BIB or Weller 12 that I can really enjoy without having to find a reason to drink them.

[Gillman]

Well, that's it. And I readily agree at the $8.00-$12.00 price point, not too many bargoons, but there are some. Double that (and a bit in some cases) and I find far more value, generally, than bourbons at double again, triple and quadruple that cost.

Gary

[OscarV]

I picked up a Very Old Barton BIB in KY last summer for a few bucks, I've had it before and I thought I'd try it again.

It is a total waste of money, had a few pours and I am pushing it on my wife and friends. I feel like I got ripped off royally.

I also got some LBS Willetts for 85 bucks and I think it was way under priced, in fact I think it was dirt cheap.

[Skunk]

I am in love with the bottom shelf lately.

Old Forester 100 which is just $16 here and great stuff as gary mentioned. VOB 86 @ $9 (can't get the bib but would love to try some). Weller Antique -just got a bottle of a single barrel done locally that is as good as the mid 90's bottles...encouraging. HH BIB 6y0 *the one store that has it can't keep it in stock because of me. I just never tire of it.*, EW Black $tolerable and affordable$, Ritt BiB when it's around, WT101 was good last time I got it. I can appreciate me some JTS Brown BiB, but not too often. Any BiB for that matter. I Impressed a friend who shops higher on the shelf than me with OGD 114 the other day. Rare breed was too hot for me to want to spend $30+ when I tried it at the bar... so that must be my upper limit for bargain pours.

I;ll splurge on all the stagg I can afford/find and at least one wLw. 4R are getting too expensive for my value ratio I only drink VW when others are buying :grin: (and the 10yo's give me a headache the next day). Parkers is so rare it's moot, but I love it.

If anyone around here ever wants to have a lower shelf tasting I'd be in. No dusties allowed.

[Jono]

Sometimes, I think people (myself included) fool ourselves, due to the expenditure, and think we enjoy the high end bourbons more than we really do..if at all. Maybe that really high proof bourbon just isn't that enjoyable or that aged bottle really is too woody. That is not to say all high end bourbons are disappointing, just that in comparison to a favorite mid range or under appreciated lower end bourbon, the difference is not worth the cost. However, collecting is part of the enthusiast motive in addition to drinking.

I really enjoy the Henry McKenna as an ideal after dinner dessert bourbon.

[TNbourbon]

Looking at my recent purchases...I've tried many (far from all) of the limited editions, experimentals, 15 years plus and other more costly bottles. And I find now I am not inclined to them generally speaking. I get the same satisfaction, sometimes more, from the regular bottlings...

Welcome to my world today, too, Gary. It's ironic that you and Oscar, on a later visit about the same time, pretty much helped me begin the degradation of my "show" whiskeys a year or so ago. I don't even remember the last 'premium' bottle I bought.

...It's a strange phenomenon where we chase after high end bottles and then drink the mid to low shelf stuff...

Well, Greg, I drank the high-end ones, too!

Gary's point about the versatility and ability to change taste profiles by his expert (and my less-so) vatting is a valid and good one, because it doesn't require top-end bottlings to do. But, a larger factor for me is that I simply don't drink much bourbon 'neat' anymore. It is almost always with a simple mixer or in a more complex cocktail. (Well, that's not quite true -- I almost always take a tiny sip of the whiskey I've poured, which I usually add first to the glass, contrary to Pappy's long-ago advice.) Since I'm covering up any long-aging effects, I find no reason to pay for it, and there are plenty of utile, simpler bottlings available.

[kickert]

At today's prices, I could never buy a bottle over $30 and be completely content. Cutting that to $25 would make an impact, but I would still be pretty happy. At under $20 I could enjoy drinking bourbon without a problem, but would long for some of the better stuff. Under $15 I could find stuff to drink, but would struggle.

The bottles I buy the most are in the $18-25 range.

[Gillman]

Always liked VOB in any proof.

Just poured some Weller Antique, added two small rocks (warmish day here) and a small dash tap water. Quite fruity and sweet but with light wood, full-bodied for a wheater, complex, very good.

Gary