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Moving Away From The High End


Gillman
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Just when one wants to move along.... here comes BTAC, PHC, Willets variations....... enough to make one way crazy....

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So Tradition is sitting on shelves in L'ville too? But at $115....ouch. Mid $80's here.

Tradition is available here for $75.

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Tradition is selling for between $95 US ($99 AU) here. From what I've seen, it isn't moving too quickly.

Wow, what he said, true for OR as well ($95, not exactly flying off the shelves).

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If one considers that some of us may spend too much money on whiskey and are at least wealthy, comparatively, when it comes to collecting it, I wonder if this psychological phenomena of what makes us happy is also taking place?

"One thing that is clear is that once life's basics are paid for, the power of money to bring happiness is limited. In fact, it can be positively harmful to our sense of well-being. Jordi Quoidbach of the University of Liège, Belgium, and colleagues recently asked a group of people to taste a piece of chocolate in their laboratory. They found that the wealthier members of the group spent less time savouring the experience, and reported enjoying the chocolate less than the subjects who weren't so well off. The same was also true of one group in a separate experiment. This time, half the people had been primed with images of money before they tasted the chocolate. These participants enjoyed the tasting less than a group who had not seen the images, suggesting that just the thought of money is enough to stem our enjoyment of life's simple pleasures (Psychological Science, vol 21, p 759)." Complete article available at http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20727791.000-how-to-be-happy-but-not-too-much.html

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When I started drinking bourbon I stayed mostly in the $15-30 range. Then, to try new things I started getting some of the more expensive bottles, like BTAC and VW, while still keeping the moderate priced bourbons in the mix. Now, having tasted a lot of different bourbons at different price points, I think except for a special occassion bottle or two, I have a hard time justifying spending more than $45 or so, and generally stay below $30. A lot of the expensive bottles are great and for some I can tell the difference in quality--I just don't think I enjoy it much more than moderate priced bottles.

I think my max for regular purchases is WT RB at 35-38, EC 18 at around 42, and VW 15 for around 55 (maybe one bottle a year). With BT, WT101, OWA, Weller 12, EC 12, Sazerac, EWSB, Eagle Rare, JB Black, and all the other quality under $30 bottles I can get the variety I want.

This discussion is evidence that we have it good. Scotch drinker could have this same discussion by adding $40.

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There is also a concept called "depletion" when discussing consumables, particularly among high end/long shelf life products like fine wines, whiskies, etc. IIRC, the principal theory is that even though a product has made its way from producer to middleman to retailer to consumer.....it is still in "inventory" until consumed.

By way of personal example, I've been buying BTAC's extensively since Stagg came out in 2002. A lot of it was purchased at $40 or less. I still have over 90% of my purchases in the bunker. So a reasonable response to higher prices/slow economy would be to not buy this year's release of Stagg and begin "depleting" my "inventory". Now take this Stagg example and add the Four Roses Limited Releases/Parker's Heritage/WT Tributes, American Spirit, Traditions/et al and you see a minor issue for the industry for the high end. This doesn't apply to the mid shelf/low end as most do not bunker a supply of Old Crow or Weller SR. Those bottlings get consumed shortly after purchase by the consumer.

I am not unique in this example. While I have a large bunker of high end whiskies, I know of many others on SB.com and elsewhere that far exceed mine. So what is happening is that we have bourbo-bunkers full of high end bourbons during a time of 1) increased supply and selection, 2) higher prices and 3) slow economy. So I'm not trading down, I'm just going to "deplete" my "inventory" and be selective in future purchases.

Randy

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Randy,

I think that "depletion" is where I'm headed (especially with Barb's urging) I don't see buying more than 1 bottle of any new release and I am definitely not going to try to buy as many new releases as in the past. Since my first real entry into the bourbon market was Stagg, I really haven't been that much into the lower/mid shelf buying so I donlt see going there. I guess I've finally hit the point that $$$ for traveling is a higher priority than adding to the bunker. Time to drink what I have....no need to leave it to the son since he doesn't appreciate it.

Tom

This new commitment goes into effect after I do one last Scotch buy so that I don't upset Timothy since he is looking forward to one the bottling I'm planning on stocking up on.

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For me, I enjoy variety. I'd much rather purchase a large assortment of decently priced whiskeys than a few premium bottlings. A large part of why I moved away from other whiskeys and became interested in bourbon was the sheer number of inexpensive, quality, and unique pours. I wasn't lured to bourbon by products like WT Tradition or Parker's Heritage. Those are all fine, and they serve a purpose, but I enjoy sticking to the $15 to $30 range. Maybe the occasional $30 to $50 bottle.

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Very interesting perspectives. My experience is kind of the obverse to Tom's, in that I bought the regular bourbons (say in 2002 and earlier - 2002 was my first visit to Kentucky) because there was no high end (or little) to buy. I was guided by Michael Jackson's seminal 1987 World Guide to Whiskey and focused on OF bonded, Evan Williams Black, Ezra Brooks (then Medley), Triple A (which was much better then than now IMO), VOB, Rittenhouse, and other such whiskeys. I liked all of them but not the Beams as much except Knob Creek: the initial Knob Creek was superb, it may have been primo ND OG. Being accustomed to these, the high end releases which followed were enjoyable but I couldn't see a huge amount of difference and as the prices spiked, I became less interested. The one high end exception was Van Winkle products, then as now in a class of their own. And A.H. Hirsch 16, and the odd one-off like that, were great. But against that background, I find considerable satisfaction in the middle and parts of the lower shelf. Stagg is great but when you adjust for proof, is it really all that different from Buffalo Trace, say? I don't really find that.

Gary

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Stagg is great but when you adjust for proof, is it really that different from Buffalo Trace, say? I don't really find that.

Gary

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There is also a concept called "depletion" when discussing consumables, particularly among high end/long shelf life products like fine wines, whiskies, etc. IIRC, the principal theory is that even though a product has made its way from producer to middleman to retailer to consumer.....it is still in "inventory" until consumed.

Interesting, I wonder how much of the market blip that showed a renewed interest in high end Bourbon by the consumer (that the producers are now responding to) was caused by enthusiasts connecting via the net and mutually urging each other to bunker the premiums. If it was indeed driven by a relatively small number of buyers and they now have their inventory stocked and are consuming on depletion then we can expect to see the higher priced juice sitting on the shelves some time before they sell.

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Steve.....I'm not prepared to argue that our mutual "frenzied" purchases of all these new, interesting high end bourbons created a false signal to the industry as to the potential market for them. We're probably not that big of an influence directly. But it's also not completely out of the question either.

For example.......let's take WT Tribute. It's a whiskey held in high regard here on SB (and on other sites). Many of us will buy everyone we see, although rarely seen these days after the SB hoard came to Houston in May. Total bottles produced were about 5300. If 500 SB members (and lurkers and knowledgeable friends of SB members and....) bought 5 bottles each shortly after release, that would mean slightly less than 50% of the world supply of Tribute ended up in the hands of "collectors". Now multiply that example by ____ and the "collectors" will amass a sizeable bunker fairly shortly (we all know who we are). If the "collectors" become saturated with great whiskies, then who buys the next even higher end offerings?

Historically, there wasn't much of a market for these things. Henry Clay, Joseph Finch, WT 12yo, early BTAC's, etc all languised on the shelves for years. It is definitely a recent phenomenon that these high end/limited releases have been able to sell. How big is the pool of potential buyers? I don't know, but based on the example above, my guess is that "collectors" have made a significant amount of those purchases. If "collectors" decide to start depleting their collections rather than adding to them, those high end bottles might sit on the shelves for awhile.

Slightly off topic, but the wine industry has worried about their high end market for some time. They had been able to continue to add to the number of high end offerings and/or increase prices by growing their market in emerging economies and benefiting from a growing pool of wealthy customers. That has changed in recent years. A recent Wine Spectator article touched on the topic of collectors now having these huge collections of great wines and are beginning to "deplete" them through consumption and aren't buying current vintages at those ever higher prices.

Now how to tie this all back to Gary's original statement and what it means to the industry......that he's moving away from the high end because he finds great enjoyment from lower priced bottles and often doesn't see any significant improvement in quality when buying the high end offerings. Those feelings (also shared by many others) combined with 1) many "collectors" slowing down and going into "depletion" of their bunker and 2) the pool of customers for these high end offerings has historically been very small could mean trouble ahead for these limited release/expensive bottlings.

Randy

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Steve.....I'm not prepared to argue that our mutual "frenzied" purchases of all these new, interesting high end bourbons created a false signal to the industry as to the potential market for them. We're probably not that big of an influence directly. But it's also not completely out of the question either.

For example.......let's take WT Tribute. It's a whiskey held in high regard here on SB (and on other sites). Many of us will buy everyone we see, although rarely seen these days after the SB hoard came to Houston in May. Total bottles produced were about 5300. If 500 SB members (and lurkers and knowledgeable friends of SB members and....) bought 5 bottles each shortly after release, that would mean slightly less than 50% of the world supply of Tribute ended up in the hands of "collectors". Now multiply that example by ____ and the "collectors" will amass a sizeable bunker fairly shortly (we all know who we are). If the "collectors" become saturated with great whiskies, then who buys the next even higher end offerings?

Historically, there wasn't much of a market for these things. Henry Clay, Joseph Finch, WT 12yo, early BTAC's, etc all languised on the shelves for years. It is definitely a recent phenomenon that these high end/limited releases have been able to sell. How big is the pool of potential buyers? I don't know, but based on the example above, my guess is that "collectors" have made a significant amount of those purchases. If "collectors" decide to start depleting their collections rather than adding to them, those high end bottles might sit on the shelves for awhile.

Slightly off topic, but the wine industry has worried about their high end market for some time. They had been able to continue to add to the number of high end offerings and/or increase prices by growing their market in emerging economies and benefiting from a growing pool of wealthy customers. That has changed in recent years. A recent Wine Spectator article touched on the topic of collectors now having these huge collections of great wines and are beginning to "deplete" them through consumption and aren't buying current vintages at those ever higher prices.

Now how to tie this all back to Gary's original statement and what it means to the industry......that he's moving away from the high end because he finds great enjoyment from lower priced bottles and often doesn't see any significant improvement in quality when buying the high end offerings. Those feelings (also shared by many others) combined with 1) many "collectors" slowing down and going into "depletion" of their bunker and 2) the pool of customers for these high end offerings has historically been very small could mean trouble ahead for these limited release/expensive bottlings.

Randy

ditto. Since board requires more letters in a post - I think this post nails it.

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ditto. Since board requires more letters in a post - I think this post nails it.

I don't know yet,....let them beg.

It's best in the long run.

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It seems in the past few years, some of the really good bottom-middle shelf bourbon has been aged just a little longer, bottled at a higher proof, and sold at a premium under a different name. I don't blame the producers for doing so if there is a market, as there obviously is.

There will always be demand for good bourbon at a low price. The "drinkers", such as me, will demand it. I have plenty of high-end stuff in the bunker, but it doesn't disappear all that quickly. I spend quite a bit of money on the premiums each year. But if you add it all up, most of my money goes to the middle shelf, which I consume in great numbers, as I'm sure most of you do as well. In that case, there will always be high demand for good bourbon at a good price. If the "big" producers don't produce it, someone else will, and my money will go to them.

Micro-distilleries are popping up in great numbers. It's only a matter of time until they perfect the process. Some of them have, but it isn't sitting on the middle shelf....

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I agree with everything you said Randy. The only thing I might add is that given the interconnectivity of food, cooking, scotch, cigar, beer and a host of other blogs and forums the opinion leaders who want to have an opinion about Bourbon are much more numerous than than the numbers of participants and lurkers of this forum.

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I agree with everything you said Randy. The only thing I might add is that given the interconnectivity of food, cooking, scotch, cigar, beer and a host of other blogs and forums the opinion leaders who want to have an opinion about Bourbon are much more numerous than than the numbers of participants and lurkers of this forum.

Yes, and while they may be entitled to have an opinion, that doesn't mean their opinion can't be DEAD WRONG.

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Eventually, for me, it came down to what did I want a bourbon to be: a comestible, or an investment?

Gold, stocks, bonds, etc., are much more predictable investments. What's the advantage of owning a desireable bourbon that you're never going to open and share (and, thus, destroy the value thereof)? (Disclaimer: I've done that, and it has its rewards and pleasures, but they are NOT financial!) And, if I'm going to open and share it, its value is 'zero'.

So, it was a no-brainer for me --bourbon/whiskey is not fungible (which is not to say one can't EVER make a profit on it. I have! Lost a bundle on some other very good ones, too!). So, buy what you drink. Drink what you enjoy. True, I enjoy Pappy 23, but I can't afford to enjoy it very often. If you can, well, mozel tov! I CAN both afford AND enjoy Evan Williams, Old Crow Reserve, et al, almost every day of the week.

So, which should I buy?:stickpoke:

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I believe that upper shelf product will continue to go up in price as demand overseas continues to grow. Which is way I am sticking with more of the lower to mid price bourbons (under $30) and am willing to bunker (and drink slowly) some of the modestly higher priced stuff like 4R SB and OWRV 10/107. The quality in there in the mid to lower shelf bourbons, which cannot be said in the scotch market.

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=eec64570-e95d-437a-ac9c-d4abded08b78

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Note the date on that article:

By The Ottawa Citizen November 6, 2008

Global finances in the interim probably put a bit of a damper on this trend.

I don't disagree with the premise or that this won't eventually happen but we must remember that Scotch had quite a head start on Bourbon thanks to a little thing called the British Empire.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Yes, and while they may be entitled to have an opinion, that doesn't mean their opinion can't be DEAD WRONG.

is this in reference to people that use high end to mix with coke on ice? or the people that laud straight corn or the latest vodka?

this forum is filled with people that have tasted more than a couple bottles and developed an appreciation of finer products.

But with that said, I've got a 750ml bottle that cost $4 on closeout that is so good I keep it around rather than killing. Price doesn't always equate value and different people have different preferences.

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Well, I for one have been forced to abandon the high end stuff. A plant closure a couple of years ago had left me scrambling for a new job and having to settle for a 25% pay cut has impacted my scotch and bourbon buying habits.

When I first abandoned rye and moved to scotch a bottle of Lagavulin was $60 CDN, now its over $100. Not affordable even for special occasions.

When I first found the delights of bourbon , I was buying Blantons at $70 a bottle, now Im settling for Jim Beam Red Stag , and, Im happy.

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  • 3 weeks later...
Funny, since I found most of these sitting on the shelf still in Louisville...often next to the older version...

attachment.php?attachmentid=11397&thumb=1&d=1285703193

What is interesting of the pics Tim posted is next to the two high end Ritt 20yr & 23 yr is the empty shelf for Ritt 100 @ $20-$21.

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