Jump to content

Moving Away From The High End


Gillman
This topic has been inactive for at least 365 days, and is now closed. Please feel free to start a new thread on the subject! 

Recommended Posts

Great thread. I agree with many others here and find plenty to enjoy in less expensive bottles. I drink very little of the high-end stuff, though I do grab a bottle occasionally, if it's something I haven't tried before.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...

If I can't drink it then it's a waste of 8 to 12 bucks...

Yep. It took me a while to figure this out. I sampled lots of bottom shelf because every once in a while I'd find a great surprise and it was fun trying different things. But then most of it was barely palatable. After a while, considering how little I actually drank, bottom shelf stuff cost more than the premium.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, Greg, I drank the high-end ones, too! ;)

As do I but for regular drinking, I drink the mid shelf stuff. I think part of it is the big proof bourbons take a little more "work" to drink while a W12 at 90 proof is easy and doesn't really take much thought. I don't save the higher end stuff for any kind of special occasion, I just shoot for the middle by default. Maybe I need to show more love to my high end selections.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Based on the results of the us SB "experts" at the BTOTY competition, maybe we should all switch to low end stuff and just pour it in unmarked bottles. Those unmarked bottles make everything taste better :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

SB members aren't the only ones moving away from the high end. I recently participated in a private barrel purchase at Tom Moore and was working with one of the beverage managers at Spec's in Houston to facilitate delivery. We got to talking about what's selling and what isn't. Here are some high end's currently at Spec's that don't sell well.

All prior iterations of the Parker Heritage series are available.

Plenty of WT Tradition on the shelf.

He showed me a shopping basket about 1/3rd full of BT Experimentals.

FR 100th and 2009 Marriage.

Rittenhouse 21/22/??? age ryes.

Vintage 17yo on sale and isn't moving.

Jefferson's 17yo Presidential Reserve.

Rock Hill Farms......rarely sells a bottle.

Those expensive Hirsch bottlings have to be put on sale to move.

I could go on and on, but the only high end stuff selling are the BTAC's and Pappy's because of limited supplies.

Lately, I have found myself pouring from handles of Weller 107 and Weller 12 in the older style packaging. It's not a conscious economic decision, I just like them particularly in our warm Texas weather.

Randy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Years ago I was told by a wine expert that "any time you pay more than $20* for a bottle of wine you're paying for marketing, packaging, or scarcity". * Price updated for inflation.

The same thing applies to malts and bourbon. I would say spending more than $80 (maybe $100) for a bottle of bourbon is paying for marketing, packaging, and scarcity. PVW 23 is great whiskey, I'm sure we'll all (at least most) agree on that, but is it 10 times better than 12 yr old lot B? I don't think so but it's more than 10 times more rare.

There is a bottom shelf bourbon available in MO called Heaven Hill Ultra Deluxe Bourbon. $17/handle. It's good for sipping and it's excellent for BBQ sauces, marinades, Kentucky coffee, other mixed drinks, etc. It's the same price as VOB and every bit as good or better. I took a bottle to the gazebo last Sampler and several people were shocked at the quality/price ratio. Bernadette uses it for her Arkansas Tea (although the bottle at this yeas KBF was make from VOB).

So I guess I'm another who owns some top shelf bourbons, but usually drinks (and enjoys) lower to mid shelf brands.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The double-barreled comments from Texas are very interesting! I think what it tells me is, the more costly products may be (often are) superior but not by a big enough margin to convince a lot of people to buy them. Whereas in malt whisky, say, the margin is perceived as much larger and expensive bottles usually sell well. Really, this is good news for bourbon fans. It means what we always knew, that the middle end offers fine values (and the high middle end, say $40.00, isn't even a starting point for fine malts anymore), and on the low end you can still find some good whiskies. Bourbon is a bargain, really, in international terms. Perhaps the spate of "high end" bottlings will wither in time and in fact up to a few years ago, there were very few of them. Either that, or producers will have to come up with something really different and special (not just high age, or proof, or a rare mash bill) to convince many to buy them. Some people will always want to buy them who can afford them, and that's fine. Some of those bourbons are very good to be sure, and they wave the flag for good whiskey, they raise interest in the category and keep the buzz going so to speak. But I wonder if there may be less of them in the future.

Gary

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gary is right in that the number of high-end/one-offs/limited releases/anniversary bottlings/single barrels/hand selected/etc etc bottlings have exploded in recent years. 7 years ago you had BT's three BTAC's and a few others. Now our bunkers are lined with unique bottlings. I had the opportunity to taste the new Parkers and the new FR Small Batch Limited Release at the Fest. I liked both, but didn't buy any as I am saturated with unique, great tasting whiskey......and I think I can get them later if I want to.

By comparison, the number and variety of bourbons available still pales in comparison to the expressions of scotch that are available (of course, there are many more "styles" of scotch too). But my guess is that the bourbon industry has pushed the envelop for the high end/unique bottlings just about as far as it can in today's market.

Randy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

SB members aren't the only ones moving away from the high end. I recently participated in a private barrel purchase at Tom Moore and was working with one of the beverage managers at Spec's in Houston to facilitate delivery. We got to talking about what's selling and what isn't. Here are some high end's currently at Spec's that don't sell well.

All prior iterations of the Parker Heritage series are available.

Plenty of WT Tradition on the shelf.

He showed me a shopping basket about 1/3rd full of BT Experimentals.

FR 100th and 2009 Marriage.

Rittenhouse 21/22/??? age ryes.

Vintage 17yo on sale and isn't moving.

Jefferson's 17yo Presidential Reserve.

Rock Hill Farms......rarely sells a bottle.

Those expensive Hirsch bottlings have to be put on sale to move.

I could go on and on, but the only high end stuff selling are the BTAC's and Pappy's because of limited supplies.

Lately, I have found myself pouring from handles of Weller 107 and Weller 12 in the older style packaging. It's not a conscious economic decision, I just like them particularly in our warm Texas weather.

Randy

On the other hand, most of these sell very well in KY.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Years ago I was told by a wine expert that "any time you pay more than $20* for a bottle of wine you're paying for marketing, packaging, or scarcity". * Price updated for inflation.

The same thing applies to malts and bourbon. I would say spending more than $80 (maybe $100) for a bottle of bourbon is paying for marketing, packaging, and scarcity.

I'm in general agreement with you Stu. But aged spirits are different than wine in the fact that they are aged. This adds costs to the distiller both in terms of the time value of the money tied up in inventory and the annual taxes that have to be paid.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's what I think would be a significant jump in quality to most of the current high-enders, and would justify a high price:

i) something that tastes like the original bottlings of A.H. Hirsch 16 year old bourbon, which was truly superlative IMO

ii) something similar to the best of the 1950's-1970's bourbons that had a layered, complex, dark caramel-like taste. (This is ironic since those sold for little at the time, but their worth was not appreciated enough).

Put those in a nice package with 100 proof or over and they would be outstanding.

Once again I am not saying the high end today isn't very good bourbon; of course it is. I am focusing more on the price-quality ratio as I have perceived it in recent years.

Gary

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here are some high end's currently at Spec's that don't sell well.

All prior iterations of the Parker Heritage series are available.

Plenty of WT Tradition on the shelf.

He showed me a shopping basket about 1/3rd full of BT Experimentals.

FR 100th and 2009 Marriage.

Rittenhouse 21/22/??? age ryes.

Vintage 17yo on sale and isn't moving.

Jefferson's 17yo Presidential Reserve.

Rock Hill Farms......rarely sells a bottle.

Those expensive Hirsch bottlings have to be put on sale to move.

Randy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's like all your friends and acquaintances. Some are really interesting but hard to get close to, some ore loud, some are too full of themselves, some have one special talent that sets them apart, some are high maintenance, tiring to be with or force their opinions on you too strongly.

You enjoy socializing with them and enjoy their company for a short time but they can get tiring.

You usually find yourself mostly hanging out with the few friends who are comfortable, entertaining and not too demanding even if there isn't anything particularly special about them.

Our lives would be poorer without both groups.

The same holds with Bourbon..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's like all your friends and acquaintances. Some are really interesting but hard to get close to, some ore loud, some are too full of themselves, some have one special talent that sets them apart, some are high maintenance, tiring to be with or force their opinions on you too strongly.

You enjoy socializing with them and enjoy their company for a short time but they can get tiring.

You usually find yourself mostly hanging out with the few friends who are comfortable, entertaining and not too demanding even if there isn't anything particularly special about them.

Our lives would be poorer without both groups.

The same holds with Bourbon..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hidden
Here's what I think would be a significant jump in quality to most of the current high-enders, and would justify a high price:

i) something that tastes like the original bottlings of A.H. Hirsch 16 year old bourbon, which was truly superlative IMO

ii) something similar to the best of the 1950's-1970's bourbons that had a layered, complex, dark caramel-like taste. (This is ironic since those sold for little at the time, but their worth was not appreciated enough).

Put those in a nice package with 100 proof or over and they would be outstanding.

Once again I am not saying the high end today isn't very good bourbon; of course it is. I am focusing more on the price-quality ratio as I have perceived it in recent years.

Gary

Well written and I would hope for the same.

I have no illusions of this happening, not for what we would call value.

Link to comment

Great thread Gary. I think anybody that was looking for stuff to try is getting good suggestions. My own observation is this; the stores that stock some of the high end stuff seem to have it on permanent display in a glass cabinet. Meanwhile stuff like OWA, and Rittenhouse BIB fly off the shelf (when they have it).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On the other hand, most of these sell very well in KY.

I can't find WT Tradition ANYWHERE. Where is this Spec's and would they be interested in shipping me a bottle?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So Tradition is sitting on shelves in L'ville too? But at $115....ouch. Mid $80's here.

Spec's is in Houston and we can't ship alcohol out-of-state here.

Randy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If these were sold at a price closer to mid-shelf, they would sell much faster IMO. Plus, they would still promote the overall brand. Win win I think, but even $80 for Tradition sounds high to me. As for those ryes, I would cut the price in half. Of course, easy for me to say.

Gary

Link to comment
Share on other sites

^ Gary I like the cut of your Jib.

I have no interest in purchasing anything at that price from the pictures Timothy posted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I should mention also Old Forester 100 proof - can anything be more perfect as bourbon? Probably, but factoring the cost-benefit ratio, I find generally the answer is no.

I somehow allowed my dead soldier of this to go unreplaced for a few months, and remedied this oversight last week. I have been enjoying the hell out of this new bottle of OF Signature, as they call it these days. I have sung its praises here over the years, and have a special fondness as its predecessor, OF BIB was my father's standard pour. As a matter of fact, as I've posted before, I probably had it rubbed on my gums when I was teething back when dinosaurs roamed the earth.

Anyway, this bottle may be better than any I recall. I think you could pass this off as a super-premium bourbon. At least to me.

So I agree with you, Gary, even irrespective of price. As I think Chuck has said, we are living in the golden age of bourbon.:)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.