BTAC and Van Winkle nonsense

[fitzharry]

I apologize if the title of this thread offends anyone: it is not meant to.

Basically, I have come to the conclusion that the time and effort I spend and have spent waiting for the release of said whiskies and driving around looking for said whiskies just isn't worth it to me.

I've had the pleasure to be able to drink good bourbon for about 35 years now. Old Weller Antique 107 in the gold-veined bottle was a favorite of mine back in the 1970s and I still drink the current version today. Old Grand-Dad bonded, Wild Turkey 101 and Rye 101, Old Charter of all ages; all these were favorites of mine over the years and remain so today.

Then about 10 years ago I found a bottle of Old Rip Van Winkle 107 at my liquor store...and I was hooked. I really enjoyed the taste of the whiskey and decided to go and pick up another bottle, and consequently drank it on a semi-regular basis. Life was good.

Then the Bourbon Trend hit. Old Rip was gone from the shelves and when it could be found the price had increased exponentially. Then BTAC hit and I decided to try these whiskies, but the same thing happened. NONE could be found unless I haunted the liquor store every day, trying to scoop one or two bottles up before the "hobbyists" hit the store and bought everything in sight, leaving empty shelves and "We're sorry, but a customer came and bought all of it!" statements from the staff. What a pain in the neck!

So, I've decided to go back to my old regular pours and stop worrying about tracking down Birthday Bourbons, barrel-proof ryes, and 140.6 proof bourbons. I just want a good drink of bourbon that tastes the same, day in and day out, in the same old-fashioned bottles. No gimmicks for me! I can have wheated bourbons, rye bourbons, and heavy corn bourbons just with the middle and lower shelf whiskies. And I can generally find them without too much effort.

Now, if they can only leave my Old Charter 10 and Old Grand-Dad bonded alone for say the next thirty-five years or so, I think I can be happy!

Anyone else feel the same?

[tmckenzie]

I feel exactly the same way.

[Happyhour24x7]

Amen. There are far too many excellent whiskies at reasonable prices out there waiting for me to enjoy them. If one of the exclusive bottles falls in my lap, great; if not, I'm not losing any sleep.

[callmeox]

My BTAC chase ended this year as I have tired of battling the ebay flippers and profiteers.

You are correct that there is plenty of great bourbon out there that doesn't require maximum effort and exquisite timing to procure.

[ratcheer]

I also agree, fitzharry.

Tim

[PappyVW23]

excellent guys! more for me. Just had some stagg last night and wlw the night before. i have found in my short 48 years the best comes to those that work hard and wait. No matter what the situation. The btac stuff is hard to get. With good reason. Stagg costs me under $60. hard to complain about a whisky that was judged the best in the world for $60. If you have to pay over $100 on ebay, so be it. I have paid over $200 for some bourbons and scotches on the shelf.

bottom line, the best things in life are usually rare and expensive. If the stuff wasn't worth it, people wouldn't pay. This isn't beany babies we are talking about.

[unclebunk]

excellent guys! more for me. Just had some stagg last night and wlw the night before. i have found in my short 48 years the best comes to those that work hard and wait. No matter what the situation. The btac stuff is hard to get. With good reason. Stagg costs me under $60. hard to complain about a whisky that was judged the best in the world for $60. If you have to pay over $100 on ebay, so be it. I have paid over $200 for some bourbons and scotches on the shelf.

bottom line, the best things in life are usually rare and expensive. If the stuff wasn't worth it, people wouldn't pay. This isn't beany babies we are talking about.

I can see where you are coming from but I think what others are talking about here goes beyond simply having the fortitude to stick it out until the so-called "rare treasures" present themselves on the shelf. To be sure, Stagg at $60 is a great deal to some folks, if you are lucky enough to find it in your area at that price. But when you are paying in excess of $100 simply because something is hard to get (which is different in my book than something that is truly "rare," such as many single malts), I always ask myself, "Is this actually better whiskey than those enjoyable bottles I already have at home that cost me half the price?" As noted by others, the prices of many current BTAC bottlings have been driven through the roof by hobbyists like ourselves and profiteers out to make a few extra bucks off our kind, not because the whiskey being produced is necessarily the best whiskey out there. And so I question the notion that "expensive" and "hard to get" translates to "the best things" when my personal whiskey drinking experience has ultimately proven otherwise.

Looking back upon it, I would say that my bourbon journey has nearly come full circle, in that I went from commonly available whiskeys in the under $30 price range to much pricier limited production bottlings (and dusties) that cost considerably more and now back to some point in between. To each his own I guess, but I'm no longer willing to expend the energy or pay exorbitant prices to get so-called gems when incredible whiskey can be found at a fraction of the price at my local liquor store. These days, if I had $200 burning a hole in my pocket, I'd spend $150 of it on a nice day trip to Kentucky and the rest on a good bottle to bring home. But that's just me!

[fitzharry]

I can see where you are coming from but I think what others are talking about here goes beyond simply having the fortitude to stick it out until the so-called "rare treasures" present themselves on the shelf. To be sure, Stagg at $60 is a great deal to some folks, if you are lucky enough to find it in your area at that price. But when you are paying in excess of $100 simply because something is hard to get (which is different in my book than something that is truly "rare," such as many single malts), I always ask myself, "Is this actually better whiskey than those enjoyable bottles I already have at home that cost me half the price?" As noted by others, the prices of many current BTAC bottlings have been driven through the roof by hobbyists like ourselves and profiteers out to make a few extra bucks off our kind, not because the whiskey being produced is necessarily the best whiskey out there. And so I question the notion that "expensive" and "hard to get" translates to "the best things" when my personal whiskey drinking experience has ultimately proven otherwise.

Looking back upon it, I would say that my bourbon journey has nearly come full circle, in that I went from commonly available whiskeys in the under $30 price range to much pricier limited production bottlings (and dusties) that cost considerably more and now back to some point in between. To each his own I guess, but I'm no longer willing to expend the energy or pay exorbitant prices to get so-called gems when incredible whiskey can be found at a fraction of the price at my local liquor store. These days, if I had $200 burning a hole in my pocket, I'd spend $150 of it on a nice day trip to Kentucky and the rest on a good bottle to bring home. But that's just me!

Exactly.

PappyVW23: Yes, I've spent $200.00 on bottles of fine XO cognac, $300.00 on a meal for two at one of my local great restaurants (and both the cognac and the meal were excellent), and $79.99 on bottles of BTAC (the going price here in Houston, when it can be found), but these are not things I choose to do every day or even every week. These purchases, to me, are special occasion purchases.

As Happyhour24x7 stated, if one of these Van Winkles or BTACs fell into my lap then that's great; but I am no longer going to worry about having enough of them bunkered. It's just not worth it to me.

(For what it's worth, I still have 11 ORVW 10/107s, 7 PVW 15/107s, 2 2006 & 3 2007 Stagg, 2006 Handy, etc., in my pantry.)

I think I can also say that most of us on this board are probably old enough (and weathered enough!) to know the virtues of patience, so that statement is a no starter in a conversation...to me. As an example, I hunt birds with Browning Sweet Sixteen semi-automatic shotguns, and I waited 37 years before I bought my first one because I couldn't afford one before. I now have five. So please, don't talk to me about patience.

And in a way, yes, I think this issue is EXACTLY like beanie babies. The next big trend to hit will have everyone scrambling for the exits to catch on to the next wonderful ultra-bourbon or ueber-rye. And like any drinker of better whiskies I would be intrigued enough to buy a bottle of it to try, too; but I won't worry any longer about driving all over Houston's 700 square miles to find it unless it happens to be available in the store in which I'm standing at that moment.

[SMOWK]

It's all about who you know. The higher up the chain the better.

[DeanSheen]

I'm getting closer to dropping out.

I let go of the Pappy chase last year.

Recently I have been thrilled with OWA 107 and the latest RITT BIB. If these $20 bottles keep producing like they have been I'll be a happy man.

[White Dog]

I can understand Fitzharry's frustration. Luckily in my state, it's not that tough to find random Pappy and BTAC hanging around(Even GTS), as there's not much wealth in Wisconsin. And while I enjoy those bottlings, I also drink every style and price point.

I guess I'm just too curious about every Bourbon/Rye to give up on an entire category.

And as to the price comments, IMHO, Bourbon drinkers are still VERY lucky, as it is the most undervalued, underpriced, world-class spirit available. If we were addicted Barley, forget about it.

[angler82]

I think it's frustrating but I've gotten used to it. There are so many other great bottles that you can get for cheap and with relative ease. I usually end up getting Weller 12 year in place of Lot B. Four Roses has great whiskey and its not a cult label (yet). OGD 114 is a go to high proof bourbon at only 20 bucks.

The entire bourbon craze has resulted in higher production from existing distilleries and the creation of new distillers. I think it bodes well for the serious bourbon fans, especially if this proves to be a fad.

I collect vintage guitars and the search for good bourbon isn't too different from the search for quality vintage guitars. Just takes patience, money, and the passion to do it.

[Jonny.Applebury]

I enjoy the hunt. I was excited to find this year's BTAC on the shelves one evening, and then spend the entire next day finding as many of these bottles as I could. White Dog is right that it isn't too difficult to find stores in Wisconsin with BTAC bottles, even from years past (though the Stagg, Weller, and Sazerac 18 seem to disappear at least by the time the next year's release hits the market).

I joined the Bourbon Brigade after immersing myself in single malt Scotch whiskies. I find that a bottle of BTAC - or Pappy, as long as we're not talking about the 23 year old - is rather inexpensive in comparison to what I became accustomed to when buying single malt Scotch. I'm sure that Buffalo Trace and Old Rip Van Winkle would have no problems selling their entire stock even if they doubled the price. I know that I would still be a customer.

[nivto]

Four Roses has great whiskey and its not a cult label (yet).

The day that Four Roses becomes (if they ever do) a BTAC or Pappy, or sees a decline in quality I will be a sad man... however, I'll be a sad man with a helluva bunkered supply of Four Roses. Cheers to anticipating the future :grin:

[fitzharry]

I enjoy the hunt. I was excited to find this year's BTAC on the shelves one evening, and then spend the entire next day finding as many of these bottles as I could. White Dog is right that it isn't too difficult to find stores in Wisconsin with BTAC bottles, even from years past (though the Stagg, Weller, and Sazerac 18 seem to disappear at least by the time the next year's release hits the market).

I joined the Bourbon Brigade after immersing myself in single malt Scotch whiskies. I find that a bottle of BTAC - or Pappy, as long as we're not talking about the 23 year old - is rather inexpensive in comparison to what I became accustomed to when buying single malt Scotch. I'm sure that Buffalo Trace and Old Rip Van Winkle would have no problems selling their entire stock even if they doubled the price. I know that I would still be a customer.

I see your point. As I said, I don't really mind paying a higher price for bourbon (or anything else, for that matter) if it's something that I really want. My problem is that the fervor of the BTAC or Van Winkle believers drives those products from the shelf. Sure, it's supply and demand; I realize that. But I can also walk into my local store and find plenty of high-demand (and expensive!) Laphroaig Cask Strength and Highland Park 18 on the shelf...but no William Larue Weller, Stagg, or Van Winkle.

It's not that I don't like the BTAC and Van Winkle products: I certainly do. It's just that I've lost the desire to run around like a chicken with my head cut off looking for the stuff. That's why I'm sticking with the Old Charter, Old Weller 107, Old Grand-Dad, and George Dickel No. 12, and hope that maybe someday the BTAC and Van Winkle will eventually...finally...make a somewhat regular appearance on my local liquor retailers' shelves.

[SMOWK]

The day that Four Roses becomes (if they ever do) a BTAC or Pappy

Haven't they already with their LE's and Mariage's and such?

[SMOWK]

But I can also walk into my local store and find plenty of high-demand (and expensive!) Laphroaig Cask Strength and Highland Park 18 on the shelf...but no William Larue Weller, Stagg, or Van Winkle.

Laphroaig sells six million cases per year. I don't think that the VW or BTAC can even come close to this.

[nivto]

Haven't they already with their LE's and Mariage's and such?

I don't think so... I find their LE's are very easy to get when they are released. They are priced high from $65-$80 at most places, but I think they're just keeping up with the price point that is now kind of the standard for Limited Edition bottlings. But, those are not what I personally bunker. I have several of the Mariages, and a few of the LE's... but I am an avid fan of the standard single barrel, as well as the SBBS selections from various sources which I think are priced very fair for the quality of bourbon that I feel that I am drinking.

[fitzharry]

Laphroaig sells six million cases per year. I don't think that the VW or BTAC can even come close to this.

Do you think this may be because of marketing decisions to keep supply limited, or perhaps just an inability to find the resources, i.e. people, time, ingredients, etc., to meet demand?

If Scotland can meet the demand then why can't we? I have to believe that the BTAC and Van Winkle producers have known for years about the demand for their products and could have planned for ageing more whiskey to meet the increase...

[StraightNoChaser]

It's almost not worth the effort anymore. And lately, I've been disenchanted by the BTAC. I think BT does fairly mediocre distilling compared to HH and 4R and it is readily apparent in these high proof bottlings. I found the 2011 4R LE 1B to have much more enjoyable flavor at 54% compared to my open GTS at 70%

[dohidied]

If I find them, I find them. In my travels dusty hunting around the bay, I've found old stock of various years of BTAC and every Pappy but the 15. I have more fun finding them by chance than checking shelves daily all October. The good thing about this being a wine-centric area is that there are plenty of stores that get allocations and never sell out. It just takes time to find them.

[StraightNoChaser]

I cherish my dusty finds much more than BTAC these days. My WC10 blows away WLW. My VWFRR blows away THH. My... well just about anything is better than ER17.

[smokinjoe]

It's almost not worth the effort anymore. And lately, I've been disenchanted by the BTAC. I think BT does fairly mediocre distilling compared to HH and 4R and it is readily apparent in these high proof bottlings. I found the 2011 4R LE 1B to have much more enjoyable flavor at 54% compared to my open GTS at 70%

Interesting take on the differnces in distillation between producers, SNC. Personal taste preferences aside, can you go into more detail on the areas that BT practices this "mediocre distilling"? Any parts of the process in particular, that are sub-par as compared to the others? How would they be different than HH and 4R? Also, what would you think the reason would be for maintaining this mediocrity in such a competitive industry?

As far as my BTAC hunting goes, if I see it, I may buy it. I may make a call, or two. I put about 30 seconds of effort into it. If it doesn't work out, no biggee. Other than that.... But to me, GTS, Saz 18, and THH are worth every penny I spend on them.

[PappyVW23]

I guess i just don't understand the post. It comes off as "i'm the old gristled veteran and these new "hobbyists" are snatching up the bourbon" then you go into a sort of sour grapes rant about how they aren't really worth it anyway so your going back to "standard" stuff which you, in your greater wisdom, know to be superior anyway. It sounds high and mighty frankly. I understand hobbyist is used in the pejorative and i have to laugh. If this isn't a hobby to you, what is it? This is a hobbyist forum is it not? Are you a professional? an addict? It is definitely a hobby of mine and i consider myself a hobbyist. I definitely buy all the bottles of pappy i can get my hands on. I sell some, drink some and trade some. These BTAC bourbons and the pappy stuff have been judged by the big boys and small boys as being good and rare. That always equals limited supply.

here is the perfect smiley for this thread :smiley_acbt:. I hope i don't offend, i hope my interpretation of this thread informs not offends. but you guys just come off as a bunch of grumpy old men that are upset a bunch of new people are getting into your hobby. Well, they are. Remember when you got into it?

you know how i get my allotment? i talk to the store owners and employees about bourbon. I show them i truly appreciate their product and their time and you know what? they call me on my cell phone to say they got something in. I don't drive all over the place looking for it. Why would you? don't have a phone? I learn a lot and make new friends this way. walk in with an attitude and a wad of cash and you get nothing around here. The plain truth is there are more people that want this bourbon than is made to meet the demand. Same as anything else. Cars, houses, cigars.....bourbon.

i'm a hobbyist and i'm proud of it.

[StraightNoChaser]

Interesting take on the differnces in distillation between producers, SNC. Personal taste preferences aside, can you go into more detail on the areas that BT practices this "mediocre distilling"? Any parts of the process in particular, that are sub-par as compared to the others? How would they be different than HH and 4R? Also, what would you think the reason would be for maintaining this mediocrity in such a competitive industry?