BTAC and Van Winkle nonsense

[StraightNoChaser]

Can't say I could comment on the specific differences between 4R and BT production, I mean obviously there are a few I know but I'm not going to deconstruct the entire thing tit for tat. What I'm going on entirely is what I can sense in my mouth.

I am really not trying to hate, BT has a business model and a way of doing things - and it works well for them. But I am not exactly a fan of their products, most of them taste cheap.

[smokinjoe]

It's all in the mouthfeel for me. In my opinion, good distillation means good texture, a lush and creamy feel almost. Most BT products I've had give me a more watery and thin texture.

[AaronWF]

As Happyhour24x7 stated, if one of these Van Winkles or BTACs fell into my lap then that's great; but I am no longer going to worry about having enough of them bunkered. It's just not worth it to me.

(For what it's worth, I still have 11 ORVW 10/107s, 7 PVW 15/107s, 2 2006 & 3 2007 Stagg, 2006 Handy, etc., in my pantry.)

[StraightNoChaser]

I assume it's due in part to the massive height of their stills, distillation proof, BEP, and how big of a cut they're taking during distillation.

I am not an expert on either distilleries' exact practices so I'll reiterate that I cannot tell you specifically what each producer is doing differently that I like and do not like. All I can comment on is what I sense and what I know about whiskey production that alters textures and flavors.

[SMOWK]

Do you think this may be because of marketing decisions to keep supply limited, or perhaps just an inability to find the resources, i.e. people, time, ingredients, etc., to meet demand?

[StraightNoChaser]

I didn't know Bourbon Hipster was actually a thing until this thread

[fitzharry]

I guess i just don't understand the post. It comes off as "i'm the old gristled veteran and these new "hobbyists" are snatching up the bourbon" then you go into a sort of sour grapes rant about how they aren't really worth it anyway so your going back to "standard" stuff which you, in your greater wisdom, know to be superior anyway. It sounds high and mighty frankly. I understand hobbyist is used in the pejorative and i have to laugh. If this isn't a hobby to you, what is it? This is a hobbyist forum is it not? Are you a professional? an addict? It is definitely a hobby of mine and i consider myself a hobbyist. I definitely buy all the bottles of pappy i can get my hands on. I sell some, drink some and trade some. These BTAC bourbons and the pappy stuff have been judged by the big boys and small boys as being good and rare. That always equals limited supply.

here is the perfect smiley for this thread :smiley_acbt:. I hope i don't offend, i hope my interpretation of this thread informs not offends. but you guys just come off as a bunch of grumpy old men that are upset a bunch of new people are getting into your hobby. Well, they are. Remember when you got into it?

you know how i get my allotment? i talk to the store owners and employees about bourbon. I show them i truly appreciate their product and their time and you know what? they call me on my cell phone to say they got something in. I don't drive all over the place looking for it. Why would you? don't have a phone? I learn a lot and make new friends this way. walk in with an attitude and a wad of cash and you get nothing around here. The plain truth is there are more people that want this bourbon than is made to meet the demand. Same as anything else. Cars, houses, cigars.....bourbon.

i'm a hobbyist and i'm proud of it.

[Brisko]

I don't put a ton of work into it but I picked up WLW, Handy, and Saz 18 last year.

This year I'll probably skip the BTAC but it's a financial decision. I have two kids in daycare this fall and my entertainment budget favors the <$20 bottles. And I'm okay with that.

[SMOWK]

I didn't know Bourbon Hipster was actually a thing until this thread

I've heard ankle stranglers can aid in your ability to run to the aisle and grab all you can. However; my pants have bigger pockets and can hold more. Damn you liquor stores that provide a cart!

[thezenone]

I can sympathize with not joining the fervor that surrounds the yearly releases of BTAC and the Van Winkle products. I understand their marketing strategy, but it would be nice to have a product of their quality available year round. I agree with fitzharry that there are plenty of reasonably priced brands of whiskey that can be purchased without having to search any farther than your closest liquor store. In fact some labels (OWA) are down right steals IMO. So count me in the camp that will purchase these limited releases if available, but I won't scour where I live to hopefully find one.

[fishnbowljoe]

I can sympathize with not joining the fervor that surrounds the yearly releases of BTAC and the Van Winkle products. I understand their marketing strategy, but it would be nice to have a product of their quality available year round. I agree with fitzharry that there are plenty of reasonably priced brands of whiskey that can be purchased without having to search any farther than your closest liquor store. In fact some labels (OWA) are down right steals IMO. So count me in the camp that will purchase these limited releases if available, but I won't scour where I live to hopefully find one.

I agree.

My BTAC chase ended this year as I have tired of battling the ebay flippers and profiteers.

You are correct that there is plenty of great bourbon out there that doesn't require maximum effort and exquisite timing to procure.

I agree.

And so on, and so on.......

Pretty much everyone makes valid points. The only thing(s) I'll add, is that we only have ourselves to blame. We perpetuate the truths and myths, and even the unknown about the Pappy bottlings, and the BTAC. We raise questions, and there is interest. We sing its praises and give it huzzahs, and that in turn raises interest. Seems to me we propagate everything ourselves. The end justifies the means I guess. We give the lurkers and profiteers all the ammunition they need so as to profit from our mistakes. Sad but true.

As for me, I won't be looking all that much anymore, but if I find some, so be it. I might grab a bottle or two. What the heck? :grin: Either way, I have more than enough stuff in my cabinet to last me the rest of my life. Heck, I just finished a Pappy 15 as I was typing this. :slappin: Cheers Y'all! Joe

[sku]

I agree that the whole thing has become rather silly. I hear horror stories from retailers about how tough it is for them, which prompted me to come up with this plan for my imaginary liquor store:

Unfortunately, it is simply not always possible to please the neurotic, OCD, border line paranoid-schitzophrenics who make up our dedicated customer base. We already have 10.5 million people on our standby list for the Buffalo Trace Antique Collection and the fall releases of Pappy Van Winkle. We have just been notified by Buffalo Trace that we will only be getting one bottle of each of these, so there will, unfortunately, not be enough for everyone. Therefore, we have come up with what we think is a fair way to distribute these very coveted bottles.

Step 1: Lottery. We will pick 150,000 names out of a hat. This will involve the procurement of a very large hat.

Step 2: Quiz. Each of the people who are picked out of a hat will be sent a detailed quiz about these bourbons. Please be familiar with the mashbills, provenance, romantic histories of the various brand ambassadors and other characteristics of these whiskeys.

Step 3: Triatholon. The 10,258 best scorers on the quiz will compete in a triatholon.

Step 4: Cage Match. The top two competitors in the triatholon will engage in a cage match. The winner of the cage match will get the bottle. If it is a tie, the tie will be broken by a game of backgammon.

Remember, you can sign up for more than one bottle, but you will have to participate in each step for every bottle you sign up for, even Eagle Rare 17.

The good news is that everyone who participates gets a free bottle of Rain Vodka!

http://recenteats.blogspot.com/2011/10/important-customer-notice-buffalo-trace.html

[fitzharry]

I agree that the whole thing has become rather silly. I hear horror stories from retailers about how tough it is for them, which prompted me to come up with this plan for my imaginary liquor store:

Unfortunately, it is simply not always possible to please the neurotic, OCD, border line paranoid-schitzophrenics who make up our dedicated customer base. We already have 10.5 million people on our standby list for the Buffalo Trace Antique Collection and the fall releases of Pappy Van Winkle. We have just been notified by Buffalo Trace that we will only be getting one bottle of each of these, so there will, unfortunately, not be enough for everyone. Therefore, we have come up with what we think is a fair way to distribute these very coveted bottles.

Step 1: Lottery. We will pick 150,000 names out of a hat. This will involve the procurement of a very large hat.

Step 2: Quiz. Each of the people who are picked out of a hat will be sent a detailed quiz about these bourbons. Please be familiar with the mashbills, provenance, romantic histories of the various brand ambassadors and other characteristics of these whiskeys.

Step 3: Triatholon. The 10,258 best scorers on the quiz will compete in a triatholon.

Step 4: Cage Match. The top two competitors in the triatholon will engage in a cage match. The winner of the cage match will get the bottle. If it is a tie, the tie will be broken by a game of backgammon.

Remember, you can sign up for more than one bottle, but you will have to participate in each step for every bottle you sign up for, even Eagle Rare 17.

The good news is that everyone who participates gets a free bottle of Rain Vodka!

http://recenteats.blogspot.com/2011/10/important-customer-notice-buffalo-trace.html

Hahahahahaha! Yes!

[hectic1]

I see your point. As I said, I don't really mind paying a higher price for bourbon (or anything else, for that matter) if it's something that I really want. My problem is that the fervor of the BTAC or Van Winkle believers drives those products from the shelf. Sure, it's supply and demand; I realize that. But I can also walk into my local store and find plenty of high-demand (and expensive!) Laphroaig Cask Strength and Highland Park 18 on the shelf...but no William Larue Weller, Stagg, or Van Winkle.

It's not that I don't like the BTAC and Van Winkle products: I certainly do. It's just that I've lost the desire to run around like a chicken with my head cut off looking for the stuff. That's why I'm sticking with the Old Charter, Old Weller 107, Old Grand-Dad, and George Dickel No. 12, and hope that maybe someday the BTAC and Van Winkle will eventually...finally...make a somewhat regular appearance on my local liquor retailers' shelves.

If Laphroaig Cask Strength and Highland Park 18 were in high-demand they wouldn't be on the shelf now would they?

People enjoy BTAC and VW products because they're really good whiskies at a fair price point (VW more then BTAC) hence why they get them when they can find them. If you don't want to run around with like a "chicken with your head cut off" then don't...it doesn't make people who enjoy the hunt wrong...

[PappyVW23]

just picked up another wlw and a stagg. probably my last purchases of the 2011 BTAC. now i can concentrate on the pappy.

i left an er17 and several thomas handy ryes on the shelf!!

[fitzharry]

If Laphroaig Cask Strength and Highland Park 18 were in high-demand they wouldn't be on the shelf now would they?

People enjoy BTAC and VW products because they're really good whiskies at a fair price point (VW more then BTAC) hence why they get them when they can find them. If you don't want to run around with like a "chicken with your head cut off" then don't...it doesn't make people who enjoy the hunt wrong...

I think the reason for the greater availability of the Laphroaig and Highland Park is due to greater production. I remember reading that some of the BTAC production is based on sometimes as few as 80 barrels per release, I think. But the two single malts are still in demand despite the much larger production.

Again, I didn't say that someone else who enjoys the hunt for BTAC and Van Winkle is wrong; in fact, more power to them. I just said that I'm not personally going to spend my time driving around looking for them like I used to do.

[mosugoji64]

The really irritating thing for me is not being able to find the bottles AND seeing them pop up on eBay. Knowing that some jerks snatched up all of the bottles just to flip when there are genuine enthusiasts looking and coming up empty is infuriating.

I've tried chatting up some retailers around here but the usual response has been, "Yeah, there's about 100 other people looking for those, too. Good luck." The 2 or 3 that actually offered to take my number never called. Oh well. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. Right now I just don't have time to chase these things down. Maybe later when I'm finished with school. Until then, there's plenty of other great bourbon out there to enjoy! :grin:

[barturtle]

when people such as myself were 11 and thinking more about chocolate milk than whiskey.

I blame the parents for such thoughts.

[timd]

I didn't know Bourbon Hipster was actually a thing until this thread

[unclebunk]

Hey - I resemble that remark!

I'm just pleased to be any kind of hipster...

I have to say, however, that of the batch of bourbons/rye's that are coveted:

Saz 18 - no other late teen rye on the market with regular production. It's a one of a kind, especially at $70-80. It's much easier to find than Vintage 21 & PVWFRR (which are the only real competitors at a similar price). Good stuff - but I'll pick up a Vintage 21 at/near that price over it every time; same with Pappy's Rye (as if I'll see it again...)

Thomas H Handy - with the exception of the Party Source's AB Rye, there's not another barrel strength, young (good) rye on the market. That said, there's NO reason this shouldn't/couldn't be a year-round release at this point. I'll buy it, but I think it's "rarity" is a marketing myth and it should be a $50 bottle year round.

GT Stagg - I can't name another teenage bourbon with this much fire & brimstone going, but I can name a few that come really close. Good, worth the buy - but not the hunt.

WL Weller - I've grown displeased with this one. I like it, but I'd rather have Weller Centennial back, or even Vintage Bourbon 17. I've got 2 in the bunker, and will pass if I see it...

Eagle Rare 17 - why is this on any list? I've had some $25 indy bottlings of ER10 that blow doors off the BTAC version...

When it comes to Pappy stuff, however, the rarity is just flat out frustrating - because it's ALL good to essentially great.

The ORVW, The Lot B and The Pappy 15 are all standouts in their age brackets, and each is "reasonably" priced. I've never paid over $60 for Pappy 15, and at that proof it's a bargain. I don't mess with the 20/23 year stuff - too pricey.

The Pappy Rye is easily the juiciest, sweetest, spiciest and most enjoyable rye on the market (to me). Too bad it's so damn rare and limited... I can only hope the replacement they are aging-up at BT will come close to this quality. TH Handy & Baby Saz sure are good - but can't see them becoming THAT good... fingers crossed.

Great post, Tim. I'm with you on virtually all counts. You may want to check out Michter's 10 YO Rye, as it is tasty juice and is believed to be much, much older than its age statement.

[ebo]

I've never tasted Pappy in any form. I've never tasted Stagg. I probably never will. I also don't care. Anything that is that hard to get isn't worth my time to bother with.

If I can't go to the store and buy it, I'm sure as hell not going to spend countless hours trying to get it. There are many different Bourbons, Scotches and Irish to be had and enjoyed with a simple trip to the store and a purchase.

[DeanSheen]

Post of the week. Many Internets to award here. I only quoted my favorite bits so on to the awards:

HANDY +7 Internets.

This is my favorite SB meme. Please BT make it so! I'd go buy a case of Handy tomorrow if I could get it for $50 even if it was generally regularly available.

WL Weller +10 Internets.

Centennial remains my favorite bourbon ever. I'm drinking 2010 WLW right now and I like it alot but not as much as I would like having 1 and 2/3 bottles of Centennial. ($70 WLW vs. $40 Centennial)

VWFRR + 8 Internets.

Best Rye I've ever had and best VW product IMO.

Thomas H Handy - with the exception of the Party Source's AB Rye, there's not another barrel strength, young (good) rye on the market. That said, there's NO reason this shouldn't/couldn't be a year-round release at this point. I'll buy it, but I think it's "rarity" is a marketing myth and it should be a $50 bottle year round.

WL Weller - I've grown displeased with this one. I like it, but I'd rather have Weller Centennial back, or even Vintage Bourbon 17. I've got 2 in the bunker, and will pass if I see it...

The Pappy Rye is easily the juiciest, sweetest, spiciest and most enjoyable rye on the market (to me). Too bad it's so damn rare and limited... I can only hope the replacement they are aging-up at BT will come close to this quality. TH Handy & Baby Saz sure are good - but can't see them becoming THAT good... fingers crossed.

[autiger23]

Speaking of nonsense....for the hell of it finally went on ebay to see how prices really were for these including the pappy 15 and 20.

There are A LOT of stupid people out there. Not because they pay money, extreme money for all of this but I just watched on auction for a 20 year old bottle and it ended for $295 which is absolutely insane. Insane because there are 3 other auctions I see right now where someone could have bought it now for $190 and $240. My god people, id sell mine if I knew I could get it for $295.

[DeanSheen]

Speaking of nonsense....for the hell of it finally went on ebay to see how prices really were for these including the pappy 15 and 20.

There are A LOT of stupid people out there. Not because they pay money, extreme money for all of this but I just watched on auction for a 20 year old bottle and it ended for $295 which is absolutely insane. Insane because there are 3 other auctions I see right now where someone could have bought it now for $190 and $240. My god people, id sell mine if I knew I could get it for $295.

One of my favorite threads on another fourm I am on is titled "stupid people on <auction site x>"

It's great fun. I think we need one here.

[autiger23]

One of my favorite threads on another fourm I am on is titled "stupid people on <auction site x>"

It's great fun. I think we need one here.

Mindblowing after I saw that.