WSR now NAS

[Halifax]

That is the logical line of thought but not something that will likely happen right away...but, who knows?...

They sure didn't have a problem dropping Old Charter 12. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. I don't know that hard statistics... Perhaps someone with more industry knowledge can chime in. My guess is that Lot B is more widely distributed than Weller 12. From what I was told during my visit to BT last year, Weller 12 is only sold in about a third of the US. I can find Lot B easier than Weller 12. Regardless of how it shakes out, or who controls what... Sazerac/BT makes a significantly higher profit margin on a case of Lot B than they do on Weller 12. So... Given the recent change of WSR, I am skeptical that BT will continue to support Weller 12. Hopefully I am wrong...

[T Comp]

Well this is as good a time as any to revisit the angst and speculation that took place when the OWA nas label came out back in '09.

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12981&highlight=OWA+NAS

Note callmeox's conversation with BT too:

I spoke to someone at Buffalo Trace and I was told that 7 year old barrels are selected and dumped for both OWA and WSR. Some juice is directed to be cut to proof for OWA and the rest is cut and bottled at 90 proof for SR. It all starts as the same batch of aged juice. They also added that if the SR ever loses its age statement, then we can worry. I think that's a pretty important thought.

IIRC, WSR outsells OWA by a factor of 5 or 6 so anywhere from 75 to 90% of the dumped aged stock gets bottled as SR. If the OWA label change was really intended to extend their ability to sell wheated brands without proper stock, why mess with the lower impact, lower selling brand? It's a drop in the bucket when compared to its stable mate.

I understand that this doesn't appeal to the emotional responses and those looking for bourbon industry villains, but it looks like a case of "as goes SR so goes OWA" and SR is still age stated bourbon.

[cowdery]

I don't think it's VW so much as it is the success of Weller itself. Even if they grow VW a little bit faster than they have, the total VW volume is a drop in the bucket beside Weller and Weller isn't a huge brand.

I don't think they're going to dramatically increase VW availability. That would be a big risk, especially since Julian did all those interviews about how his strategy is to increase volume very slowly so he can be assured of selling every drop without having to work too hard. (He didn't exactly say it like that.)

The choice usually is, lose the age statement or up the price, and the fact is a price increase usually hurts sales more than a label change, which is all this is to most people, a label change. Evan Williams and Wild Turkey didn't pay a price for dropping their age statements and they're much bigger brands than Weller.

I predict they will drop Weller 12, sadly, but that's just conjecture. I have no inside information.

[Josh]

Can't say I am really surprised by this news, assuming it's not just another confusing quirk of the Great Bourbons website.

I agree with Joe (the smokin' one) on Weller SR. It's really dull. I'm not crying any tears of the loss of the age statement on SR.

I am now terrified for Weller 12, though. Not b/c I necessarily think its demise is imminent but because Chuck conjectured it might be. I now fear the Van Winkle hysteria may now spread to Weller 12!

[jcg9779]

I enjoy the WSR, but agree that it's not as good as the OWA. I reach for WSR more than Maker's but they have the exact same role for me - a simple, easy drinking bourbon. At $9.99 I bought six of them, because it's good enough to drink neat and I don't mind if friends dump it into coke, ginger, or whatever. To that point, it's the perfect party bourbon for me...non-bourbon drinkers aren't scared away because of proof or harshness, I don't care if it's mixed, and I still enjoy it as it is.

[Clavius]

I bought a bottle of OWA a few days ago and I just don't like it as much as I remember. Could be because I've been drinking so much scotch lately. However, with this news I will definitely be picking up a few bottles of WSR 7-year to mark the end of an era.

[Tico]

Wow, pretty interesting stuff. I have always been a fan of the WSR for the price and will definitely be stocking a few for the bunker just for fun. OTOH, I really like the Weller 12 and hope they keep it as for as long as possible.

[dohidied]

Crap. I've never tasted WSR and have no desire to, but as it directly affects OWA I am scared. I think I now must devote bunker space to OWA. And then Chuck had to start fearing for W12. Man, I don't have the space for all of these SB Weller vatting fixins.

[smokinjoe]

A retailer that I would consider knowledgeable and well connected said today that there is a rumor floating about that BT may be discontinuing the Eagle Rare? :skep:

[jcg9779]

A retailer that I would consider knowledgeable and well connected said today that there is a rumor floating about that BT may be discontinuing the Eagle Rare? :skep:

Someone else posted that somewhere on here, but I can't find the thread. I think the thought was that more and more barrels will go towards the main brands - mainly BT and Stagg - since they all have the same higher corn mashbill. Someone please jump in if I'm off base.

[smokinjoe]

Someone else posted that somewhere on here, but I can't find the thread. I think the thought was that more and more barrels will go towards the main brands - mainly BT and Stagg - since they all have the same higher corn mashbill. Someone please jump in if I'm off base.

Louse. I hate when the rumors I'm trying to spread get partially substantiated so quickly!

[jcg9779]

Louse. I hate when the rumors I'm trying to spread get partially substantiated so quickly!

Oops...

:banghead:

[DeanSheen]

Louse. I hate when the rumors I'm trying to spread get partially substantiated so quickly!

Ohh this just keeps getting better and better. So all the mid shelfers are disappearing. Great. I love that pricepoint for ER and I don't mind the juice at all.

So basically in this thread I learned that OWA could suck soon, ER could disappear, and Weller 12 may not be far behind. Strike up the band!

[fishnbowljoe]

Great. OWA and Weller SR have changed. Weller 12 and ERSB may disappear. At least I should have enough of all those in my bunker to hold me till hell freezes over.

Crap! I just heard a rumor that hell may soon freeze over. Guess I was right for a change. :skep:

[Parkersback]

At least they didn't insult us by putting, "Old No. 7 Recipe" on the neck.

[jcg9779]

At least they didn't insult us by putting, "Old No. 7 Recipe" on the neck.

Well, they haven't done it YET.

[Old Lamplighter]

Sounds like it's time to start Weller 12 hunting & hoarding. It don't take much to start a 'run on the bank'.

[cowdery]

Although Stagg has grown quite a bit it's still tiny compared to BT or ER. They are on completely different scales, volume wise. There is no need to rob ER to pay GTS.

BT makes a little more sense but only a little. There again, this theory only works if they have woefully underestimated the demand for BT. That would be a huge goof. It just seems very unlikely. All of these brands are managed and I haven't seen any evidence that they are mismanaged. This should be a good time for BT. They have a whole bunch of brands and the rising tide is raising all ships, so they should be sitting pretty. They have plenty of distilling capacity so if they are having trouble meeting demand at the higher ages, they can easily pump more in at the other end. They just have to allocate until production catches up, which is normal, especially now.

But, yes, GTS, ER and BT all have the same mash bill.

The BT line-up has been stable for quite a while. Yes, dropping the age statement on WSR is a change, but a relatively minor one compared with discontinuing a brand. It hasn't been that long since they dropped the 101 in favor of the current product. They've got it at a good price point, why would they drop it?

Yes, BT has done well, but Saz is not an all-the-eggs-in-one-basket company. Killing ER10 to plug that volume into BT seems very drastic, uncharacteristically so.

[DeanSheen]

Thanks counselor. The nervosa is understood by so very few accredited professionals.

But, yes, GTS, ER and BT all have the same mash bill.

This does beg a stupid question that just passed through my mind. What accounts for the color difference between ER101 and ER90? A few less years in the barrel or the added water?

[cowdery]

This does beg a stupid question that just passed through my mind. What accounts for the color difference between ER101 and ER90? A few less years in the barrel or the added water?

That, i.e., both, and unless you're comparing the color in two identical glasses, rather than by eyeballing the bottles, the difference in bottle shape makes a big difference.

[cowdery]

The official word is that both WSR and OWA are still 7-years-old but they took the age statement off so they could make "90 proof" more prominent, because many competitors in the same price segment are less than that.

I told them how people here feel about spoken assurances after an age statement disappears from the label: not worth the paper they're not printed on.

[Brisko]

Well, I don't really care about WSR specifically (and if I did, I'd point out that the current NAS OWA is probably a little better than the last couple years of the age stated).

What I do care about is another age statement lost. Has there ever been an instance of an age statement coming back after it's been dropped? Not a rhetorical question, by the way.

Now, I realize that NAS gives the producers more room to work, and maybe put out a more consistent product. But as a consumer, I still prefer the age statement. I also wish there were more BiBs still around, but that's another topic.

I guess the alternative would be allocation, which means less revenue... but it can create great buzz for the brand (look at, well, any whiskey that's been allocated to see that effect).

Or, worse yet, is the example of Baby Saz-- dropped the statement and still has supply hiccups. Of course with Saz and Rittenhouse (is the 80 proof still 3 y/o?) the issue is excess demand. I don't get the impression that WSR suddenly jumped in popularity.

[cowdery]

Did Baby Saz ever have an age statement?

I can't think of an instance in which an age statement has "come back," but line extensions with age statements sometimes appear in lines that haven't had them previously.

In some ways, age statements -- especially on 'value' brands -- are a vestige of the glut era. It's hard to say what will happen going forward. I know one of the big blended scotches that uses age statements--Chivas, I think--has research that shows people like them and perceive a stated age as having value.

Heaven Hill built Evan Williams into a major brand largely on the strength of three tangible and objective facts: more age, more proof, lower price. Of the three, only the third remains and the brand still does just fine.

[JayMonster]

In some ways, age statements -- especially on 'value' brands -- are a vestige of the glut era.

I know one of the big blended scotches that uses age statements--Chivas, I think--has research that shows people like them and perceive a stated age as having value.

I think those two statements really sum it up. An Age Statement on a "Value Brand" was a way to try and give some additional value without having to drop the price more.

And with the Chivas research, the key word is *perceived* value. The fact that it is just (arguably) better than say a Dewars or J&B (I speaking in a bar or average person walking into a liquor store, not the "educated consumer") just gets highlighted and the age is ASSUMED to be the reason that it is better.

If Chivas decided tomorrow to remove their age statement, it doesn't mean that the product is going to be any better or worse.

But for some reason with Bourbon it seems that the automatic assumption (at least here) is that removing the Age Statement automatically means an inferior product. But if everything else as to quality of ingredients, materials, etc. stays the same and the taste remains unchanged, does it really matter if it is 7.5 years rather than 8 or 9?

There is plenty of crap out there that is aged... it just makes it old crap. The Good Stuff may be aged more, but it is the fact that it is good to begin with that makes it important, not the age stated on the bottle.

(In my Not So Humble Newbie Opinon of Course)

[ILLfarmboy]

I don't remember Baby Saz ever having an age statement.

What I lament is the stratifying of brands into top shelf extra aged and lower and bottom shelf 'value' brands with no age statements. You just know the product will be degraded over time. It's like going into a grocery store and only being able to buy cheese whiz in a can or spending 8 bux for 6 oz of fancy imported Dutch Havarti. Damn it man. I want an in between option!

Does this make me an unusual consumer, someone the marketing folks don't wish to court?