Angel's Envy Cask Strength

[BAO]

Sounds like a challenge.

[smokinjoe]

Dang!! I wish I had bitched about the price...

[MyOldKyDram]

Challenge accepted.

I've little to no doubt it's a quality product. I enjoy the regular bottling quite a bit. I'm simply having a tremendously difficult time justifying the price. But I will indeed let the juice speak for itself per your suggestion, Wes. Well played.

[conecuhridge]

Challenge accepted.

I've little to no doubt it's a quality product. I enjoy the regular bottling quite a bit. I'm simply having a tremendously difficult time justifying the price. But I will indeed let the juice speak for itself per your suggestion, Wes. Well played.

Thank you, sir.

Watch your doorstep Tuesday or Wednesday.

Thanks for playing along.

WH

[Vosgar]

Dang!! I wish I had bitched about the price...

That's what we get for being nice guys Joe! :grin:

[MyOldKyDram]

That'll learn ya.

[BAO]

What's the lesson we learned today, kids? Complain about things on the internet more often, and good things will happen to you...

[Tony]

Nicely done. I hope I get a chance for a bottle. Enjoyed some of the regular version yesterday with a great cigar.

Best regards, Tony

[bad_scientist]

600 bottles? Isn't that just the yield from a single port pipe?

I am with Sku when he says that the golden age of bourbon has passed. I see this when a second rate bottle-filler like Mr. Henderson can get away with retail prices this high for a young whiskey he bought from somebody else, and did what so many scotch people do, to kill the natural bourbon notes, and then sell it literally for the HIGHEST PRICE EVER for a 7-8 year old bourbon.

[c2walker]

600 bottles? Isn't that just the yield from a single port pipe?

I am with Sku when he says that the golden age of bourbon has passed. I see this when a second rate bottle-filler like Mr. Henderson can get away with retail prices this high for a young whiskey he bought from somebody else, and did what so many scotch people do, to kill the natural bourbon notes, and then sell it literally for the HIGHEST PRICE EVER for a 7-8 year old bourbon.

Someone is shooting for a case of the stuff from Wes!

[Young Blacksmith]

I think Sku and Bad_scientist are correct. 4-6 year old bulk whiskey, finished for two years in port pipes, at cask strength, selling for $140+? No thanks. And no, I don't want a sample.

[LostBottle]

In my opinion, the price is beyond asinine. At $150, the bottle should have carried an age statement. However, no educated consumer pays $150 for a young 4 year old whiskey and thus, it ends up as NAS with a special wooden box marketed to the unsuspecting. As others have pointed out, the special finishing, the NAS, the young whiskey, the "limited availability", and the ridiculous price embodies much of what's wrong with the current climate.

Edited November 18, 2012 by LostBottle

[LostBottle]

Challenge accepted.

I've little to no doubt it's a quality product. I enjoy the regular bottling quite a bit. I'm simply having a tremendously difficult time justifying the price. But I will indeed let the juice speak for itself per your suggestion, Wes. Well played.

In the spirit of making this more interesting, I think you should compare it to another cask strength NAS bourbon. Though I don't have anything $150, I imagine something clocking in at half the price should suffice.

If you don't have any, please PM me your info and I will arrange a sample of the also limited availability, NAS, and cask strength George T Stagg. All I ask in return is that you post your review here on SB.

Edited November 18, 2012 by LostBottle

[MyOldKyDram]

Got plenty of BTAC, Willett rare releases and 4R 1Bs of similar proof, and PHCs (including the cognac finished) to put it through its paces.

[oke&coke]

If the hefty price tag also includes an invitation to a party with food and I assume more booze then the experience may be worth the cost if you can make it out there.

[TomH]

In the spirit of making this more interesting, I think you should compare it to another cask strength NAS bourbon. Though I don't have anything $150, I imagine something clocking in at half the price should suffice.

If you don't have any, please PM me your info and I will arrange a sample of the also limited availability, NAS, and cask strength George T Stagg. All I ask in return is that you post your review here on SB.

I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to use your post to tie into this discussion on the other side:

1) What would be the point of comparing CS AE to an unfinished CS bourbon. This is a finished bourbon, and it's the Henderson's skill in finishing bourbon is what those of us that will purchase this product appreciate. The Henderson's (all put all of them in this group because I really believe it the trio that has made this into the product that I love) are by no means "2nd rate bottle fillers". They take a sourced whiskey and create a finished American whiskey that has the depth and complexity of a finished scotch. Others have tried (BT, WR, Bowman), but I have found their efforts to be lackluster and unbalanced compared to AE. I know much of the bourbon community is not enamored with finishes and that's fine .... each to their own. But for those of us that have enjoyed the effects of finishing scotch, it is a real treat to have an American whiskey that can stand up on its own.

2). The price is extremely high, no question about it. However, I really can't argue with AE having limited capacity wanting to make the most of this limited release. They are not targeting the "uninformed" or "uneducated" with this release, rather they know the niche market and are simply applying the laws of supply and demand. There is no hype around AE that will attract collectors, flippers, or frustrated PBW/BTAC, rather the people buying this product will be those that believe it to be the best finished American whiskey available. Would I have liked this product to be cheaper - YES. Realistically though, I believe at the $150 price tag it will sell out very quickly. So is it a fair price - YES (and at least they softened the blow a little bit with the party add-on). This is not a product aimed at the mass market of bourbon buyers - that's regular AE. I don't believe that the Henderson's even believe it is a product that is aimed at the majority of pure bourbon enthusiasts (based upon what I've been told most bourbon groups have preferred blends with small percentages of finished whiskey rather than 100% finished bourbon which I understand this release is going to be). Rather it is a product that will go to the niche market of those of us that enjoy finished whiskeys. When you are marketing to a niche market and you are the BEST in your area of expertise....you can charge what the market will bear.

3). I've been a little surprised with the reaction this release has received. Surprised that most think it is overpriced - NO. Surprised that most SB'er's don't plan to buy it - NO. What surprises me is the notion that AE is going after people that don't know what they're doing. IMHO, the vast majority of people purchasing this product will be doing so with their eyes wide open (along with their noses and mouths) believing that they are buying the best finished American whiskey currently available.

[MyOldKyDram]

"If it is NOT the most complex and smooth cask strength bourbon you have ever tried..."

That's the point of comparing it with other cask strength offerings out there.

[LostBottle]

I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to use your post to tie into this discussion on the other side:

1) What would be the point of comparing CS AE to an unfinished CS bourbon. This is a finished bourbon, and it's the Henderson's skill in finishing bourbon is what those of us that will purchase this product appreciate. The Henderson's (all put all of them in this group because I really believe it the trio that has made this into the product that I love) are by no means "2nd rate bottle fillers". They take a sourced whiskey and create a finished American whiskey that has the depth and complexity of a finished scotch. Others have tried (BT, WR, Bowman), but I have found their efforts to be lackluster and unbalanced compared to AE. I know much of the bourbon community is not enamored with finishes and that's fine .... each to their own. But for those of us that have enjoyed the effects of finishing scotch, it is a real treat to have an American whiskey that can stand up on its own.

"If it is NOT the most complex and smooth cask strength bourbon you have ever tried, I will purchase a bottle at retail and send it to you----all on me."

With all do respect, those were Wes's words, not mine. Nowhere in that (bold) statement did I see any caveat about finished bourbon - nope, simply that it would be the smoothest and most complex cask strength Dram ever tried. This, indeed, makes GTS a competitor.

In regards to finishing, finishing seems to add flavor to those whisk(e)ys that were not stellar to begin with, e.g. youngish whisk(e)y. For the truly complex stuff, finished variants do add something different, but at the expense of muting the underlying flavors which actually makes the whisk(e)y less complex.

Edited November 19, 2012 by LostBottle

[callmeox]

Well said, Tom. Thanks for adding some needed balance to the discussion.

[BourbonJoe]

Too damned much money. I'm out. I don't care how good it is.

Joe :usflag:

[conecuhridge]

I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to use your post to tie into this discussion on the other side:

1) What would be the point of comparing CS AE to an unfinished CS bourbon. This is a finished bourbon, and it's the Henderson's skill in finishing bourbon is what those of us that will purchase this product appreciate. The Henderson's (all put all of them in this group because I really believe it the trio that has made this into the product that I love) are by no means "2nd rate bottle fillers". They take a sourced whiskey and create a finished American whiskey that has the depth and complexity of a finished scotch. Others have tried (BT, WR, Bowman), but I have found their efforts to be lackluster and unbalanced compared to AE. I know much of the bourbon community is not enamored with finishes and that's fine .... each to their own. But for those of us that have enjoyed the effects of finishing scotch, it is a real treat to have an American whiskey that can stand up on its own.

2). The price is extremely high, no question about it. However, I really can't argue with AE having limited capacity wanting to make the most of this limited release. They are not targeting the "uninformed" or "uneducated" with this release, rather they know the niche market and are simply applying the laws of supply and demand. There is no hype around AE that will attract collectors, flippers, or frustrated PBW/BTAC, rather the people buying this product will be those that believe it to be the best finished American whiskey available. Would I have liked this product to be cheaper - YES. Realistically though, I believe at the $150 price tag it will sell out very quickly. So is it a fair price - YES (and at least they softened the blow a little bit with the party add-on). This is not a product aimed at the mass market of bourbon buyers - that's regular AE. I don't believe that the Henderson's even believe it is a product that is aimed at the majority of pure bourbon enthusiasts (based upon what I've been told most bourbon groups have preferred blends with small percentages of finished whiskey rather than 100% finished bourbon which I understand this release is going to be). Rather it is a product that will go to the niche market of those of us that enjoy finished whiskeys. When you are marketing to a niche market and you are the BEST in your area of expertise....you can charge what the market will bear.

3). I've been a little surprised with the reaction this release has received. Surprised that most think it is overpriced - NO. Surprised that most SB'er's don't plan to buy it - NO. What surprises me is the notion that AE is going after people that don't know what they're doing. IMHO, the vast majority of people purchasing this product will be doing so with their eyes wide open (along with their noses and mouths) believing that they are buying the best finished American whiskey currently available.

Tom,

Thanks for the post, and we appreciate your observations. Honestly, I have been surprised seeing how feelings about price (which is influenced heavily by wholesale and retail positions) has seemingly turned into an attack on a product that nobody has yet to sample. We have been very open about the process of how Angel's Envy is produced. Unlike many other products on the market utilizing bourbon produced by partner distillers, my family takes possession of the bourbon, carefully hand selects barrels for import and finishing, and then blends the final product. I will say unequivocally, we have one of the best blending teams in the world....led by my father, and followed by my son, Kyle.

When I first tasted what would become our Cask Strength Angel's Envy, I knew it was special. Even took a picture of it in a glass (which I will post when I hunt it down). In this business, you don't always get special. Trust me, I have concocted some things that are WAY short of special. "Special" is what I thought when tasting, NOT "let me think about how to get $99 or $149 for this stuff". To this end, the Cask Strength was released for a select few who are interested (with eyes wide open). We created a package that was reflective of a bourbon meant to share with friends, and a private event to continue our adventure of discovery together.

In closing, there are some incredible Cask Strength products on the market. I have almost all of them behind my bar. You made a great point about comparison of Angel's Envy to other similar releases. In reality, it is difficult to compare, as they are very different products, and much of this has to do with personal preference. The more I think about it, although the comparisons are inevitable, and I may have encouraged them, I am more comfortable with a position as being the best at what WE do, as opposed to trying to measure against widely varying offerings.

Best,

Wes

[Yeti]

It's probably just a side effect of too much Scotch purchasing, but $150 in-and-of itself isn't a non-starter for me. Especially considering the incredibly limited release, and the invitation to the party. That's the kind of thing that might have a $150 price tag alone. If I somehow stumble upon a bottle of this when I'm in Kentucky next month (I won't) I'll seriously consider it. Especially if I think I could manage another trip to the party in January.

[Vosgar]

I guess "sticker shock" is the best way to describe my reaction when I first saw the price tag on this. I'm a BIG fan of AE and had been looking forward to the cask strength version ever since it was rumored to be coming out. Having bought a number of bottles of the regular AE and never paying more than $45 for any of them, my thoughts had been it would be around $75, give or take $10. Can't really tell you how I came up with that number and I guess I was very naive, but that's what was in my head so to see it for double that really surprised me.

Lord help me if I happen to come across a bottle. I'm going to want to buy it, but my head and my wallet are going to be fighting me all the way.

Gary

[squire]

Thank you for your post Wes, it was informative, to the point and showed grace under pressure. I applaud your efforts in finishing whisky and while not to my taste (good whisky doesn't need it) it does provide an added dimension that the whisky wouldn't otherwise have. I have paid more than $149 for a bottle of whisky and have received gifts of bottles of that or greater value. When you bill a client by the hour for a year he appreciates a thoughtful gesture at holiday time. I won't be buying yours though because I'm retired, no longer have a need to send such gifts, and am disinclined to pay that much for something I will use myself. Being a Bourbon enthusiast for about 50 years now my use parameters have tightened so I'll offer a few observations.

I have no use for a box except as a place for a small boy to store his toy soldiers (also makes a dandy fort) so for me the exterior container is just expensive trash.

I'm sure I would enjoy the dinner conversation but for a meal I prefer to choose my own time, place and menu. A personal one on one tour of your facility though might move me a little closer to the yes column.

I have no use for a cork closure. Prized bottles are used sparingly and cork eventually gets dry, brittle, and most importantly, lets more air in. Doesn't spoil the whisky of course but it will change it over time. A screw top is the safest, most protective and efficient closure system.

I don't care if the whisky is made or purchased by you so long as it's good stuff. Your team can judge a barrel better than I can and I'm willing to pay for your efforts.

In short what I want is a good product at a reasonable price. I don't expect a bargain bin special, quality costs, but I am unwilling to pay extra for packaging frills.

My best to you and yours during this holiday season.

Regards,

Squire

Edited November 23, 2012 by squire

[Kyjd75]

My local store in Elizabethtown got one bottle of AE Barrel Strength in 2 days ago, and it is already gone (sold for the asking price of $150). There is definitely a niche market for AE out there.