whiskies that fail to list State of Distillation?

[wadewood]

It is a TTB requirement that if a whisky is not distilled in State listed on the label, then the actual State of distillation must be listed on label. I contacted the TTB about this and received a response. They are asking for a list of said whiskies in violation. I can think of plenty, but if you know of something you would like to add, please post here.

[squire]

Can't add to your list Wade without knowing what's already on your list.

[wadewood]

Can't add to your list Wade without knowing what's already on your list.

Most that are failing to do so are the 'craft' distillers. I've started my list with those in Texas that are not in compliance; Whitmeyer, Troubadour, Yellow Rose, Red River, Witherspoon, Rebecca Creek, Treaty Oak. I'm compiling list along with the products TTB ID number. So I have Texas covered.

If you ones in your state, please let me know.

[wadewood]

Yellow Rose Double Barrel Whiskey- 13114001000435

Yellow Rose Blended Whiskey - 13058001000310

Yellow Rose Straight Rye Whiskey - 12212001000384

Red River Bourbon Whiskey - 12244001000201

Red River Rye Whiskey - 13074001000120

Red River Texas Young Rye Whiskey - 13155001000353

Red River Single Barrel Bourbon Whiskey - 14073001000115

Whitmeyer's Texas Single barrel Whiskey - 13030001000191

Witherspoon's Texas Straight Bourbon Whiskey - 13030001000507

Troubadour Bourbon Whiskey - 12282001000029

Troubadour Blended Whiskey - 12304001000020

Troubadour Barrel Strength Bourbon Whiskey - 13308001000169

TX Blended Whiskey - 12060001000607

Rebecca Creek Fine Texas Spirit Whiskey - 11221001000100

Jefferson's Reserve - 14051001000011

Silver Star Whiskey - 12043001000098

Red Handed Bourbon Whiskey - 13189001000159

Salado Texas Whiskey - 13240001000089

Henderson Rye Whiskey - 14016001000383

Henderson Bourbon Whiskey- 14016001000385

Black Saddle Bourbon Whiskey - 13127001000063

Jesse James Bourbon Whiskey - 12081001000532

Alibi Whiskey - 14035001000307

Templeton Rye Whiskey - 12191001000550, 12206001000228

Breckenridge Bourbon Whiskey - 10254001000072

Tin Cup American Whiskey - 13094001000375

Whistlepig Straight Rye Whiskey - 13261001000089

Whistlepig Boss Hog Straight Rye Whiskey - 13198001000309

Hillrock Estate Bourbon Whiskey - 12223001000064

Here are the whiskies I reported.

[cowdery]

Good for you, Wade.

[TunnelTiger]

Go get em Wade! :drink:

[squire]

This could be a long list.

[GaryT]

Love this idea! I never buy most of this type of stuff, but will keep an eye out for it next time in the stores.

[VT Mike]

Didn't High West put out a whiskey that was a vatting of young whiskey that was distilled by them and older sourced whiskey? In a case such as that are they required to list both states on the label?

[squire]

One would think that they are.

[cowdery]

One of the listed distillers called me today about this. He says he's unaware of this rule. For the benefit of he and any other offenders, it is Section 5.36(d). (Emphasis mine.)

(d) State of distillation. Except in the case of 'light whisky,' 'blended light whisky,' 'blended whisky,' 'a blend of straight whiskies,' or 'spirit whisky,' the State of distillation shall be shown on the label of any whisky produced in the United States if the whisky is not distilled in the State given in the address on the brand label. The appropriate ATF officer may, however, require the State of distillation to be shown on the label or he may permit such other labeling as may be necessary to negate any misleading or deceptive impression which might be created as to the actual State of distillation. In the case of 'light whisky,' as defined in Sec. 5.22((3), the State of distillation shall not appear in any manner on any label, when the appropriate ATF officer finds such State is associated by consumers with an American type whisky, except as a part of a name and address as set forth in paragraph (a) of this section.

Edited April 23, 2014 by cowdery

[BAO]

This is real "new age" thinking here, but if I'm an employee of the TTB, I'm signing up for this board for research and interaction/outreach purposes.

Just a suggestion, if there are any TTB lurkers.

[PaulO]

I remember Jefferson Rye used to say Canada on the label. The more recent ones don't have Canada on the label, but taste similar. I don't know if maybe this belongs on Wade's list.

[wadewood]

I'm sure many more could be included on this list. High West does not list the actual State of distillation on their sourced products but at least they are upfront about it and do say it is sourced on their website. I focused on those in Texas and especially on those I feel purpose is specifically designed to deceive the consumer.

[sku]

I'm sure many more could be included on this list. High West does not list the actual State of distillation on their sourced products but at least they are upfront about it and do say it is sourced on their website. I focused on those in Texas and especially on those I feel purpose is specifically designed to deceive the consumer.

[HighInTheMtns]

Didn't High West put out a whiskey that was a vatting of young whiskey that was distilled by them and older sourced whiskey? In a case such as that are they required to list both states on the label?

They've never bottled such a whiskey.

They do name the origin state on 12 and 16; those are the only straight whiskeys they have sold.

[HighInTheMtns]

High West doesn't have to on most of their whiskeys since they list them as blends of straight whiskeys. There are tons of MGP whiskeys that don't list the state. I don't even think Smooth Ambler lists Indiana on their Old Scout labels even though they have been open about it being MGP whiskey.

I don't have a bottle of the standard release Old Scout but the bottle I have from a private barrel states DSP-IN-1.

Faultline says Distilled in Indiana.

[bad_scientist]

My 14 year Very Old Scout doesn't give the state, but a TPS 10 year has an Indiana DSP.

Chuck, do we need to take away their achievement star? In their defense, they have an entire *paragraph* on these bottles about how they sourced the whiskey.

[Harry in WashDC]

The one bottle of SA 7 "Straight Bourbon" currently available to me (the others being out of reach and I'm not going downstairs to look at them or at my SA 7 Rye right now) says "Bottled by" and gives the WV address AND its web address (and the website pretty clearly says where it was distilled). Like b_s's SAVOS 14, my label does have a paragraph saying it was ". . ."scouted" during our efforts to find exceptional . . ." After thinking about this far too much, I concluded that few distillers don't know where their still or their barrels are and, thus, also concluded, that a person who knew enough or cared enough to try to figure out where it was distilled at least has a clue that it likely was not at the address listed under "Bottled by". Further, I probably could argue with a straight face (lawyer talk for "Giving it my best shot") that a phrase in the reg. that Chuck quoted above COULD be construed as giving the ATF officer perusing a label the discretion to do nothing about missing "distilled in [state]" IF the officer concludes that nothing else on the label would intentionally mislead someone who cared about its distillation state into thinking the spirit in the bottle was distilled in the state in which it was bottled.

EDIT - The phrase I refer to is the one starting wit "or" about allowing some other info on the label to avoid confusion. Much stuff fits through the "or" loophole.

Edited April 26, 2014 by Harry in WashDC

[squire]

If there is just the tiniest bit of clearance between the post and the gate an enterprising puppy will get out of the yard. I get the distinct impression the TTB is not operating at minimum tolerances.

[TheNovaMan]

All labels have to be approved by the TTB, right? If so, then isn't it the TTB that should be taken to task for labels not specifying the state in which the spirit was distilled?

[wadewood]

All labels have to be approved by the TTB, right? If so, then isn't it the TTB that should be taken to task for labels not specifying the state in which the spirit was distilled?

Did you read my 1st post in this thread? I did take the TTB to task for this and they responding wanting examples.

[TheNovaMan]

Oh, I took that to mean they wanted a list so they could go after the makers of the improperly labeled bourbons. My mistake.

[cowdery]

I thought about that interpretation of the stuff about the ATF officer, Harry, but if you read it carefully, it doesn't give the officer unlimited discretion. It only lets him or her make a tighter restriction in cases where the otherwise okay labeling might be misleading.

I have a bottle of the Old Scout 14 as well. It's in violation. I don't think this is necessarily a hanging offense, but I agree with Wade that a lot of the Texas NDPs want the public to believe the product is made in Texas, because Texans like that sort of thing.

This is a good thing to publicize because TTB has been lax about enforcing it but they haven't put out any kind of notice saying they have reinterpreted the rule. The rule stands and the producers should be faulted for not following it and TTB should be faulted for not being vigilant about it.

I also wonder if MGPI, since they advertise about being a partner in product development with their customers, is irresponsible for not informing all customers outside of Indiana about this requirement.

Edited April 29, 2014 by cowdery

[wadewood]

In addition to violating section 5.36 (d) that Chuck posted, I think these also violate section 5.34 (a):

[h=2]§5.34 Brand names.[/h](a) Misleading brand names. No label shall contain any brand name, which, standing alone, or in association with other printed or graphic matter, creates any impression or inference as to the age, origin, identity, or other characteristics of the product unless the appropriate TTB officer finds that such brand name (when appropriately qualified if required) conveys no erroneous impressions as to the age, origin, identity, or other characteristics of the product.