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whiskies that fail to list State of Distillation?

wadewood

By wadewood
in General Bourbon Discussion

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amg Disciple

amg

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According to http://www.ttb.gov/spirits/bam/chapter1.pdf these are the types for which state of distillation is required:

Bourbon Whisky

Rye Whisky

Wheat Whisky

Malt Whisky

Rye Malt Whisky

Corn Whisky

Straight Bourbon Whisky

Straight Rye Whisky

Straight Wheat Whisky

Straight Malt Whisky

Straight Rye Malt Whisky

Straight Corn Whisky

Straight Whisky

Whisky Distilled From Bourbon Mash

Whisky Distilled From Rye Mash

Whisky Distilled From Wheat Mash

Whisky Distilled From Malt Mash

Whisky Distilled From Rye Malt Mash

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wadewood Disciple

wadewood

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According to http://www.ttb.gov/spirits/bam/chapter1.pdf these are the types for which state of distillation is required:

Bourbon Whisky

Rye Whisky

Wheat Whisky

Malt Whisky

Rye Malt Whisky

Corn Whisky

Straight Bourbon Whisky

Straight Rye Whisky

Straight Wheat Whisky

Straight Malt Whisky

Straight Rye Malt Whisky

Straight Corn Whisky

Straight Whisky

Whisky Distilled From Bourbon Mash

Whisky Distilled From Rye Mash

Whisky Distilled From Wheat Mash

Whisky Distilled From Malt Mash

Whisky Distilled From Rye Malt Mash

Correct. If you product is any of these types and you don't list the actual State of Distillation, you are in violation. Even if the TTB approves your label, you are still in violation.

In addition, the TTB can also require the state to be listed for other whiskies types to 'negate any misleading or deceptive impression'.

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wadewood Disciple

wadewood

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I'm new to Straight Bourbon and late to this conversation, but I have a question that is relevant, I think. Mr. Cowdery had a blog post about one of our Montana distilleries, Headframe Spirits, and their Neversweat Bourbon a couple of days ago. I commented on his post and said that I had bought a botlle of this bourbon over a year ago and contacted the company about their claim on the label that the bourbon was distilled by them, to which they never responded. I guess they have since changed the label to say "blended and bottled by..." (I haven't bought another bottle since that first one). Based on the above reg, are they now in compliance with the labeling requirements since this is apparently "a blend of straight whiskies"? To me, regardless of the fact that the label says "blended and bottled by...", they are still being deceptive by not saying where it was distilled, unless all of it was distilled in Montana. This is pretty much impossible since as far as I know, the oldest distillery in Montana (Roughstock) can just now barely make the claim to have NAS straight bourbon, and they don't produce enough to share. So, should Headframe Spirits' Neversweat be added to this list of whiskies that fail to list the State of distillation?

https://www.ttbonline.gov/colasonline/viewColaDetails.do?action=publicFormDisplay&ttbid=11319001000543 - here is a link to their COLA label. There are issues with this product and label:

1. The back of the label says '100% Straight Bourbon Whiskey'. The TTB class type is 141, which is Bourbon Whiskey. Class type 101 is Straight Bourbon Whiskey. So they can say its Straight Bourbon on a class type 141

2. Label says blended and bottled, so it's likely sourced whiskey - which means the failed to list actual state of distillation. 'Blended and Bottled' is different than 'a blend of straight whiskies'

I've already turned in my list and revised list to the TTB. If you want to report this to the TTB, do it.

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JeffM Novice

JeffM

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https://www.ttbonline.gov/colasonline/viewColaDetails.do?action=publicFormDisplay&ttbid=11319001000543 - here is a link to their COLA label. There are issues with this product and label:

1. The back of the label says '100% Straight Bourbon Whiskey'. The TTB class type is 141, which is Bourbon Whiskey. Class type 101 is Straight Bourbon Whiskey. So they can say its Straight Bourbon on a class type 141

2. Label says blended and bottled, so it's likely sourced whiskey - which means the failed to list actual state of distillation. 'Blended and Bottled' is different than 'a blend of straight whiskies'

I've already turned in my list and revised list to the TTB. If you want to report this to the TTB, do it.

Thanks. I think I'll just wait and see what they do. If they get as big as they are planning, they will likely come under a lot more scrutiny.

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mark fleetwood Enthusiast

mark fleetwood

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Since the TTB seems to be dragging their feet, I decided to see what the State of Texas will do about it. I just picked two examples to start. I've contacted TABC a few times before with a question and always received prompt informative answers. I sent this yesterday:

In the TABC Administrative rules Ch. 45 Marketing practices, 45.5 Labels - Prohibited practices:

(1) any statement that is false or untrue...that tends to create a misleading impression.

(7) no label shall contain a brand name..that creates any impression of or inference as to the age, origin, identity...that conveys erroneous impressions.

I think there are some brands that mislead consumers and violate both of these. A few examples include:

Texas label certificate 879046, 1835 Bourbon Whiskey. This product is labeled on front Texas 1835 Bourbon Whiskey; it also says Texas Made. The back label is a Texas history lesson.

Texas label certificate 839489, Witherspoon's Texas Straight Bourbon Whiskey. This product label says it's Texas Straight Bourbon Whiskey.

Both of these products in their current versions are sourced whiskeys that were fermented and distilled out of State. I think any ordinary consumer buying these products would think they were made only in Texas because they give this misleading impression.

In addition, they violate federal code, CFR 27, section 5.36 (d), which states for certain types of whiskies, the actual State of Distillation must be listed on the label. This is not listed on the label. I would like to file an official complaint about these 2 products.

If anybody wants to read the Texas rules I'm referencing - https://www.tabc.state.tx.us/laws/code_and_rules.asp

Note about Witherspoon's - They are an actual distillery, but this product is labeled Straight Bourbon with NAS, so it has to be 4 years old. They opened in 2011 and started selling this product in 2013, so either it's sourced whiskey or it is lacking the required under 4 year age statement.

Ugh, Witherspoon's ISN'T from Reese's bathtub??

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wadewood Disciple

wadewood

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Thank you for championing this Wade.
appreciate that! would like it even more if the TTB thought the same. For some reason, I picture every time I email they probably yell over their cubicles, hey got another one from that asswipe in TX.
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cowdery Deity

cowdery

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Wade laid it out but to sum up, Neversweat appears to be in violation of 5.36(d). (Headframe is the producer, Neversweat is the product.)

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DEelfinn Taster

DEelfinn

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If there is just the tiniest bit of clearance between the post and the gate an enterprising puppy will get out of the yard. I get the distinct impression the TTB is not operating at minimum tolerances.
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Harry in WashDC Deity

Harry in WashDC

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Congratulations, Wade. I'm not sure that the change would have occurred without your poking at them. What gets me is: some enthusiasts (and I include myself in the "obsessive" column) will pass on a bottle of indeterminant provenance while impulse buyers won't read the fine print, anyway, so why NOT follow the regs and put the state of distillation on the bottles? (That's a rhetorical question, you all; don't answer.)

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smokinjoe Deity

smokinjoe

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It is a nice article. I had to giggle at the line that the lawyer from Seattle had regarding the very early years of Templeton rye:

"I assume (during Prohibition) they didn't distill it in Indiana, then ship it to Iowa, then ship it to Al Capone," Marler said, "because Al Capone would probably get pretty pissed about that."

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mark fleetwood Enthusiast

mark fleetwood

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Kudos to Wade and props to the Des Moines Register for helping shine a light on an in-state business. What's doubly frustrating (especially to a Hoosier) is that there must be great history and stories and recipes from the MPG facility (can we please start re-referring to it as Seagrams?) that might help make for neat new brands and labels. Wish MPG itself would introduce its own brand and put that big lady on the Ohio back in the forefront of whiskey drinkers minds.

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cowdery Deity

cowdery

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Kudos to Wade and props to the Des Moines Register for helping shine a light on an in-state business. What's doubly frustrating (especially to a Hoosier) is that there must be great history and stories and recipes from the MPG facility (can we please start re-referring to it as Seagrams?) that might help make for neat new brands and labels. Wish MPG itself would introduce its own brand and put that big lady on the Ohio back in the forefront of whiskey drinkers minds.
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