W.L. Weller 12-year Basically Pappy?

[CL]

Some comments:

First, it is the nature of whiskey to age differently based on many variables - wood, temp, warehouse location, etc. Some turns out passable, some is good, some is great. The passable stuff gets the bottom shelf labels. The good stuff gets mid shelf. The great stuff gets top shelf.

Trying to elevate the lower stuff by comparing it to the top shelf doesn't make the lower stuff any better or the higher stuff any worse. The lower level stuff is lower level because it doesn't taste as good (well, with respect to the master distiller and the profiles he/she has selected.)

The only reason we are having this discussion is because of the Pappy hype. We aren't hearing people compare Benchmark (bottom shelf) to GTS (top shelf). We aren't hearing people compare FR Yellow to FR SmB 2013 LE.

Second, the HH, BT, etc. brands that have a different distillery name (Evan Williams, W.L. Weller, etc) aren't being dishonest or sneaky. Their marketing materials and their web sites show the whole lineup. There is no deception.

Third, let's drink bourbon. As, Chuck Cowdery said earlier in this thread, "Beyond that, come on. It's just whiskey."

[PaulO]

So how long before a marketing genius submits a label for "Pappy Jr.", "Young Pappy", "Pappy Light", or "Son of Pappy"?

[JPBoston]

Just so long as they stay away from Baby Pappy.

Sounds like an MTV reality show.

"From the producers of Teen Mom comes...... Baby Pappy"

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

[cowdery]

The problem really starts with this notion that the Van Winkles are the best bourbons in the world, which they just aren't. They're good. It's an all premium line-up. I'll even say very good. But the best? No way. That, of course, will cause people to ask, "well, then, what is the best bourbon?"

I know this answer will be supremely unsatisfying to many, but there is no 'best.' That's true in most things. In most things, not just bourbon, 'best' is a construct that can't be justified rationally without criteria. In other words, if 'best' equals most popular, then you can identify 'the best.' If the best ice cream is the one with the highest milk fat level, then you can identify 'the best' ice cream. Without some kind of objective criteria it's just an opinion and, in most cases, it's a person engaging in self-aggrandizement, who equates 'the best' in all matters to whatever he or she likes the most. So when Anthony Bourdain (a major cause of Pappymania) says "Pappy Van Winkle is the best bourbon in the world," that's just a guy who is way too full of himself saying, "Pappy is my favorite bourbon."

You'll get a lot more out of this hobby if you just forget about the concept of 'the best.' Because if you think something is 'the best,' then why would you drink anything else? Think of all you would miss if you took that attitude.

It's this bothering about what's 'the best' that makes people here endlessly discuss the relationship between Weller and Van Winkle. Over on Facebook, some people are beating the relationship between Stitzel-Weller and Maker's Mark to death. Granted, it's interesting to a point, but in both of those cases that point has long since passed.

Edited May 26, 2014 by cowdery

[Restaurant man]

The problem really starts with this notion that the Van Winkles are the best bourbons in the world, which they just aren't. They're good. It's an all premium line-up. I'll even say very good. But the best? No way. That, of course, will cause people to ask, "well, then, what is the best bourbon?"

I know this answer will be supremely unsatisfying to many, but there is no 'best.' That's true in most things. In most things, not just bourbon, 'best' is a construct that can't be justified rationally without criteria. In other words, if 'best' equals most popular, then you can identify 'the best.' If the best ice cream is the one with the highest milk fat level, then you can identify 'the best' ice cream. Without some kind of objective criteria it's just an opinion and, in most cases, it's a person engaging in self-aggrandizement, who equates 'the best' in all matters to whatever he or she likes the most. So when Anthony Bourdain (a major cause of Pappymania) says "Pappy Van Winkle is the best bourbon in the world," that's just a guy who is way too full of himself saying, "Pappy is my favorite bourbon."

You'll get a lot more out of this hobby if you just forget about the concept of 'the best.' Because if you think something is 'the best,' then why would you drink anything else? Think of all you would miss if you took that attitude.

It's this bothering about what's 'the best' that makes people here endlessly discuss the relationship between Weller and Van Winkle. Over on Facebook, some people are beating the relationship between Stitzel-Weller and Maker's Mark to death. Granted, it's interesting to a point, but in both of those cases that point has long since passed.

I agree completely chuck. Anthony bordain is a certified jerk who rose to success by selling out the very people with whom he claims allegiance. I love when they introduce him as chef. What was he the chef of? When's the last time he cooked anything for anybody. Hope he dies of lung cancer.

Anyway I also agree about that pappy stuff you said. :wink:

[bourboNcigars]

A little angry to nite are we? Lol I wouldn't wish cancer on anyone but to each his own..just pour a glass and relax a bit my friend, all will be well

[Restaurant man]

A little angry to nite are we? Lol I wouldn't wish cancer on anyone but to each his own..just pour a glass and relax a bit my friend, all will be well

[MyOldKyDram]

The problem really starts with this notion that the Van Winkles are the best bourbons in the world, which they just aren't. They're good. It's an all premium line-up. I'll even say very good. But the best? No way. That, of course, will cause people to ask, "well, then, what is the best bourbon?"

I know this answer will be supremely unsatisfying to many, but there is no 'best.' That's true in most things. In most things, not just bourbon, 'best' is a construct that can't be justified rationally without criteria. In other words, if 'best' equals most popular, then you can identify 'the best.' If the best ice cream is the one with the highest milk fat level, then you can identify 'the best' ice cream. Without some kind of objective criteria it's just an opinion and, in most cases, it's a person engaging in self-aggrandizement, who equates 'the best' in all matters to whatever he or she likes the most. So when Anthony Bourdain (a major cause of Pappymania) says "Pappy Van Winkle is the best bourbon in the world," that's just a guy who is way too full of himself saying, "Pappy is my favorite bourbon."

You'll get a lot more out of this hobby if you just forget about the concept of 'the best.' Because if you think something is 'the best,' then why would you drink anything else? Think of all you would miss if you took that attitude.

It's this bothering about what's 'the best' that makes people here endlessly discuss the relationship between Weller and Van Winkle. Over on Facebook, some people are beating the relationship between Stitzel-Weller and Maker's Mark to death. Granted, it's interesting to a point, but in both of those cases that point has long since passed.

Didn't you write a book called The Best Bourbon You'll Never Taste?

[dmarkle]

I agree completely chuck. Anthony bordain is a certified jerk who rose to success by selling out the very people with whom he claims allegiance. I love when they introduce him as chef. What was he the chef of? When's the last time he cooked anything for anybody. Hope he dies of lung cancer.

Anyway I also agree about that pappy stuff you said. :wink:

He was the chef at Les Halles in New York years back. Les Halles may sound like a fancy name, but it's just a decent NY restaurant, nothing special, at least today. His claim to fame -- the reason why the Travel Channel/Food Network/Etc picked him up, is that he wrote a great book called Kitchen Confidential. Really entertaining. It's not about foodies, it's about what it's like to be inside the restaurant scene in NY. And yes, he has a persona, and that's what people like to film, and yes, it's a bit too much.

It's funny. I ted to think of things like this as fashion, like Beats headphones. I saw a guy at work with white Beats headphones on the other day. I came back two days later and he was wearing purple. I asked him how many he had -- he had 4 pair, one to complement whatever he was wearing that day. Are Beats the best headphones out there? Uh, no. Are they even good? Meh, not really. They are a fashion brand. Likewise, I saw an empty bottle of PVW 23 y/o on Facebook, clearly taken at a club with bottle service, and a loud brag about the drinking the "best, yo!" (fill in "yo" with "boyyeeee" or "bro" depending on your demographic). So PVW has unfortunately become a fashion brand.

What gets our panties in a bunch here is that unlike Beats headphones, this stuff really is very good. And worse, when bought for suggested retail, it's still a wonderful value (at certain ages and price points). And it makes me a bit melancholy to think that many of us who really geek out and love the flavor profile of what they're doing won't be able to drink or taste it readily, and the people who seem to be drinking the most of it are the ones who really only care about the label on the empty bottle for their Facebook pictures.

[TunnelTiger]

My "best bourbon" changes from week to week and can be influenced by how readily available it is.

[squire]

Well, I can't argue that Pappy isn't the best for Facebook purposes.

[squire]

My "best bourbon" changes from week to week and can be influenced by how readily available it is.

I can sometimes be influenced by proximity as well.

[mosugoji64]

I'm glad you pointed out the folly in pursuing the "best," Chuck. It's all so subjective. I REALLY hate it when people ask me to name my favorite whiskey/movie/music/book or whatever. I have many favorites and the lists change daily. People who restrict themselves to a favorite or "the best" miss out on so much good stuff. But, I suppose that frees them up from having to think too much about anything.

[cowdery]

'Best' isn't always subjective. The winner of a tournament is 'the best' at that sport or whatever, at least until the next tournament. With whiskey and other things that are subjective, I accept that 'best' can designate a group of exemplary examples. When I say there is no 'best,' I certainly don't mean to say all whiskeys are equal, just that the quest for a singular, unassailable 'best' is folly.

And if I had to pick a 'best' bourbon, by which I mean the bourbon I like best, it wouldn't be anything Van Winkle. It would be the standard Four Roses Single Barrel. Second would probably be Buffalo Trace. Weller 12 would do no better than third. That's the other thing about 'no best,' it's usually just a self-aggrandizing way of saying 'my favorite.'

Of course, the douchebags in the clubs aren't even saying that. They're saying, "this is what 'they' say is the best, which is why I have to have it." They probably can't even tell you who this 'they' they're trusting is. That's how shallow, vain, pretentious, and ignorant they are.

One reason my choice wouldn't be a Van Winkle is that nothing in the line, expect perhaps the ORVW10, is really a 'normal' bourbon. I'd call them specialties, interesting variations on 'normal' bourbon.

Edited May 27, 2014 by cowdery

[CL]

I'm glad you pointed out the folly in pursuing the "best," Chuck. It's all so subjective. I REALLY hate it when people ask me to name my favorite whiskey/movie/music/book or whatever. I have many favorites and the lists change daily. People who restrict themselves to a favorite or "the best" miss out on so much good stuff. But, I suppose that frees them up from having to think too much about anything.

I answer those questions with "depends" and throw the question back to have them elaborate what they are really asking. ;-)

P.S. Along with "the best", I throw in those Top 10 lists. I never read them, well, other than Letterman's.

[Paddy]

My "best" is usually whatever happens to be in my glass.

[ModernThirst]

I like the 15 and 20 year version of pappy quite a bit. Let's face it, there jsut aren't a lot of wheated bourbons aged past 12 years. that makes them, at the very least, somewhat unique.

But by and large, I prefer spicier, higher proof bourbons anyway, so calling them "the best" is pretty subjective. I'd take a 2009 or 2010 George T. Stagg over any of the pappy line. don't know that Stagg is the "best" for anyone else, but it's one of the bourbons I most prefer.

[CL]

My "best" is usually whatever happens to be in my glass.

Reminds me of when my father-in-law and I were bass fishing in a South Florida canal about 30 years ago. It was tough fishing after a January cold front. We were on the side of the canal, working the weeds, content to be in our 12' aluminum boat with 5 hp outboard.

A big new shiny fiberglass bass boat with 150 hp outboard screams up the canal, stopping suddenly right up to us, tossing our little boat with its wake.

The shiny guy asks "Where's the best place to fish in this canal?"

My father-in-law, with a scowl, says "Right here until you pulled up and scared all the fish away." :-)

[bourboNcigars]

Lmao, great story man..I would have felt like cap if I did that to someone ruining their fishing trip with my look at me I'm rich boat..He got him good

[kjbeggs]

Yeah but they're great in their early 20s.

Especially together...

[DBM]

I love the direction this thread took (seriously, great conversation), but going waaay back to the beginning:

I recently did a non-blind SBS with every BT wheated bourbon except Lot B. Weller SR, OWA, Weller 12, ORVW 10, PVW 15/20/23 and WLW, and for fun I added a 60/40 SB Blend (OWA/W12).

Regardless of which you prefer, it was plainly obvious that every single bottle was distinctly different and unique, which honestly surprised me considering they are supposed to be the "same product" with the obvious variations in age, location, barrel selection/profile target, etc. The conclusion is that I think we (SB members) rely too much on the label, the provenance, the mashbill, to tell us if a bourbon or whisky is going to be "good" or "great". If the same base ingredient can create this many unique bourbons, why do they have to be compared to each other at all?

The PVW20 was my if-I-could-only-drink-one-of-these-every-day winner with WLW a close second. To me, every VW bottle was clearly a higher quality pour compared to the WL Weller line, which tasted thin and astringent in comparison. Yet without the SBS, I drink the WL Weller products regularly and happily.

Taking the entire bourbon industry into consideration, there is a massive variety of flavor profiles to select from and there are an infinite number of opinions. The only safe conclusion that came out of the tasting for me is to learn from the masses about what you might like, but only trust yourself to drink what you do like.

[CL]

I love the direction this thread took (seriously, great conversation), but going waaay back to the beginning:

I recently did a non-blind SBS with every BT wheated bourbon except Lot B. Weller SR, OWA, Weller 12, ORVW 10, PVW 15/20/23 and WLW, and for fun I added a 60/40 SB Blend (OWA/W12).

Regardless of which you prefer, it was plainly obvious that every single bottle was distinctly different and unique, which honestly surprised me considering they are supposed to be the "same product" with the obvious variations in age, location, barrel selection/profile target, etc. The conclusion is that I think we (SB members) rely too much on the label, the provenance, the mashbill, to tell us if a bourbon or whisky is going to be "good" or "great". If the same base ingredient can create this many unique bourbons, why do they have to be compared to each other at all?

The PVW20 was my if-I-could-only-drink-one-of-these-every-day winner with WLW a close second. To me, every VW bottle was clearly a higher quality pour compared to the WL Weller line, which tasted thin and astringent in comparison. Yet without the SBS, I drink the WL Weller products regularly and happily.

Taking the entire bourbon industry into consideration, there is a massive variety of flavor profiles to select from and there are an infinite number of opinions. The only safe conclusion that came out of the tasting for me is to learn from the masses about what you might like, but only trust yourself to drink what you do like.

Well said, both about the variations and about your advice on "might like" and "do like".

[squire]

Completely agree, blind tasting is the best way to get grounded then the fun begins.

[Paddy]

Reminds me of when my father-in-law and I were bass fishing in a South Florida canal about 30 years ago. It was tough fishing after a January cold front. We were on the side of the canal, working the weeds, content to be in our 12' aluminum boat with 5 hp outboard.

A big new shiny fiberglass bass boat with 150 hp outboard screams up the canal, stopping suddenly right up to us, tossing our little boat with its wake.

The shiny guy asks "Where's the best place to fish in this canal?"

My father-in-law, with a scowl, says "Right here until you pulled up and scared all the fish away." :-)

Great story! Living life to the fullest is about great moments... unforgettable moments! Little things that occur when least unexpected, that leave lasting impressions.

I'll never forget my first taste of Eagle Rare 101 or Rare Breed, just like I'll never forget my first kiss or trip around the bases.

[JGriff]

Does anyone have info on the next Weller 12 release? One shop owner believes BT will do an annual release like PVW and BTAC. Another shop owner said they discontinued to help with Pappy supply. This was a go to bourbon and available everywhere until this year. Bummer.