Diageo's Orphans Don't Interest Me

[dcbt]

I think I read that all the bourbons in the entire series are sharing the same numbering sequence.

[TunnelTiger]

I'm seeing more bottles of Barterhouse on the shelves at dealers that said a few months ago they couldn't get any.

Since I really enjoy it good for me.

[GaryT]

I'm seeing more bottles of Barterhouse on the shelves at dealers that said a few months ago they couldn't get any.

Since I really enjoy it good for me.

I've also seen more Barterhouse on the shelves than the other two. I picked up the only Rhetoric I saw, don't know that I ever saw an Old Blowhard. I think I've passed nearly a dozen Barterhouse on the shelves.

[BigRich]

I've also seen more Barterhouse on the shelves than the other two. I picked up the only Rhetoric I saw, don't know that I ever saw an Old Blowhard. I think I've passed nearly a dozen Barterhouse on the shelves.

I've grabbed a Barterhouse and a Rhetoric thus far. I'll probably grab another Barterhouse or two soon as I'm liking it more and more. I haven't seen an Old Blowhard in the wild but if I do I'll snag it. I'd like one bottle.

[petrel800]

I keep an eye on Hansell's blog every now and then which I guess is now the Whiskey Advocate blog. Found it interesting to see all of these get snubbed from making any of the top 10 lists they post quarterly. Haven't had many of the scotches on the list, not saying the Orphan bottles belong on there, but I do find it interesting that not one made any of the lists. For all the packaging, age and prices, the hype surrounding these is minimal. To some extent, it seems the cool factor just isn't there on these. I suspect its the "size" of the release, but overall, I just find it interesting.

http://whiskyadvocate.com/whisky/2014/08/12/whisky-advocates-fall-issue-buying-guides-top-ten-reviews/

http://whiskyadvocate.com/whisky/2014/05/13/top-10-whiskies-reviewed-in-the-summer-2014-issue-buying-guide/

http://whiskyadvocate.com/whisky/2014/02/11/whisky-advocates-spring-issue-top-10-buying-guide-reviews/

[squire]

Perhaps if they they had emphasized the limited selection and rarity angle rather than the bogus orphan story the brands would've been better received.

[Wryguy]

I've only had the Old Blowhard, but for a 26 year old bourbon with a MSRP of $150 I found it to be wholly unremarkable and one-dimensional. Watery, sweet, a tiny bit of barrel spice and an abrupt finish. I'll try the other two if I see them out at a bar, but this whole Orphan Barrel series thus far does not interest me. Funny because I've enjoyed the dusty Old Charter I've had, but maybe the relative price point when compared to these is part of the enjoyment.

[The Black Tot]

By this point I'm wondering what Diageo's own assessment of the program is.

They figured Old Blowhard would be an instant sellout and fast collectible, but it's still on shelves in some parts of the country nearly 6 months after its release.

Barterhouse just never seemed to sell out anywhere, and second waves of it are available - and I'm not even sure the retailers want to take it on.

Not so sure about the Rhetoric - I got my bottles from my guy, but I haven't seen it on a shelf yet. Time will tell if that's harder to get. They seem to have solved the idea of having too much of it with the "we'll release a fifth of the stock each year, so you can track the development with us as it ages to 25yrs". Nice one.

Anyway, I wonder what Diageo thinks of the program at this point. It seems to have not generated the market it was hoping for. It seems to be stalled.

Will Strongbox be released at a lower price point, and be the "value teaser" of the Orphan line?

Will scotch and Irish whiskey drinkers be so much less tolerant of the "orphan concept" that the whole series might flop as a whole?

We know what people think of the ethics of this business plan, but what is the assessment of more expienced bourbon market watchers on how these products are selling?

tbt

[Paddy]

I've yet to purchase any of them. I found OB to be a solid, but as other have noted, one dimensional pour. The truth is, it's an over aged stock that (as Squire has stated previously) would have probably been dumped or given away to employee's back in the day.

If I am the target market, the program has obviously failed. However, I don't believe for a moment that I'm the type of consumer/mark they are trolling for. My experience is limited to one bar drink, so take that for what it's worth. :skep:

[The Black Tot]

Right. I remain an OB lover. I think the regrets would be that I'll never know what it would have been like at higher proof. Also, at $100 or even $120, I'd have bunkered more than I have. Reading any of the reviews on SB.com will show that one man's blah is another man's bliss, so I understand the variation in appreciation.

But I'm just noting that whoever the target market is, there weren't enough of us to clear the shelves. Do we think Diageo expected this kind of lingering, or did they expect them to be snapped up and unobtanium (which they were in some markets, to be sure)?

I remember reading some hubristic quote that someone in Diageo management made about "We've got the whiskeys" and "we're going to take price every year". But can they, really, if the Orphans are now developing a reputation for gathering dust?

It's easier to get a Barterhouse today than it is to get an Elmer T Lee. In some markets it's arguably easier to get an Old Blowhard than an ETL. It's not easier to PAY for it, but I'm talking apples to apples availability.

I wonder if they'll be forced soon to start "giving" the price they were so excited about "taking".

tbt

[squire]

Sure they've got aging stocks of whisky but you cannot just create the next big thing. The phenomenon that is Pappy was an overnight success 20 years in the making.

[The Black Tot]

Sure they've got aging stocks of whisky but you cannot just create the next big thing. The phenomenon that is Pappy was an overnight success 20 years in the making.

Yes, that is the fact beneath my wonder. Do we think Diageo was prepared for this in advance, and is therefore satisfied with the current state of the orphans? Or do we think they are surprised that they didn't in fact manage to create the next big thing, and are a little rattled by it not working out?

tbt

[LCWoody]

Sure they've got aging stocks of whisky but you cannot just create the next big thing. The phenomenon that is Pappy was an overnight success 20 years in the making.

And it was very good.....

[garbanzobean]

I keep an eye on Hansell's blog every now and then which I guess is now the Whiskey Advocate blog. Found it interesting to see all of these get snubbed from making any of the top 10 lists they post quarterly. Haven't had many of the scotches on the list, not saying the Orphan bottles belong on there, but I do find it interesting that not one made any of the lists. For all the packaging, age and prices, the hype surrounding these is minimal. To some extent, it seems the cool factor just isn't there on these. I suspect its the "size" of the release, but overall, I just find it interesting.

http://whiskyadvocate.com/whisky/2014/08/12/whisky-advocates-fall-issue-buying-guides-top-ten-reviews/

http://whiskyadvocate.com/whisky/2014/05/13/top-10-whiskies-reviewed-in-the-summer-2014-issue-buying-guide/

http://whiskyadvocate.com/whisky/2014/02/11/whisky-advocates-spring-issue-top-10-buying-guide-reviews/

Barterhouse and Blowhard are reviewed here if you are interested:

http://whiskyadvocate.com/ratings-reviews/?brand_id=547&rating=0&price=0&category_id=0&issue_id=0&reviewer=0

If you check the rest of the issue's reviews here:

http://whiskyadvocate.com/ratings-reviews/?brand_id=&rating=&price=&category_id=&issue_id=78&reviewer=&page_num=0

You will find that Barterhouse appears to be tied for 16th place at 90/100. That's actually really respectable considering the overall lukewarm welcome the Orphan Barrel Project has received. In comparison, ETL Commemorative received an 88/100 in the same issue. At any rate, I enjoyed trying Barterhouse and Blowhard, but not enough to buy more than the one bottle of Barterhouse I got on sale. I didn't even bother looking for Rhetoric. In general, most bourbon over the age of 4 years strikes me as pretty tasty, but I didn't get anything out of the Orphan Barrel whiskies I tried that I can't get out of a $20-$40 bourbon. Unfortunately for my wallet, I can't say the same for some of the scotches that end up on the seasonal top 10 lists. I blame Chainwhip . . . that seems easier than taking personal responsibility.

Edited August 15, 2014 by garbanzobean

[nd2005]

Yes, that is the fact beneath my wonder. Do we think Diageo was prepared for this in advance, and is therefore satisfied with the current state of the orphans? Or do we think they are surprised that they didn't in fact manage to create the next big thing, and are a little rattled by it not working out?

tbt

I think it shows that Diageo doesn't take the bourbon world seriously. In their minds the recipe was simple:

Take old bourbon, tell people it's rare, give them a whimsical story, and set the price at top-shelf levels. Instant hit.

What their reaction is to the middling sales? I don't know.

[suntour]

I hit probably 40 stores in indiana and the only thing slightly premium I saw was a bottle of WFE...and probably 200 bottles of barterhouse and rhetoric. I saw exactly 0 bottles of it in Oregon but According to the state liquor registry it's still fairly findable. Same can't be said for any limited release I know of save for Stagg Jr and the rare bottle of ECBP. they definitely miscalculated.

[The Black Tot]

I think it shows that Diageo doesn't take the bourbon world seriously. In their minds the recipe was simple:

Take old bourbon, tell people it's rare, give them a whimsical story, and set the price at top-shelf levels. Instant hit.

What their reaction is to the middling sales? I don't know.

Yes, I agree it was disrespectful. But I'm kind of curious about where they go from here? I think they were hoping to create a ravenous market for the rest of the Orphan program. They thought they'd be raising and raising prices and cackling all the way to the bank. But the shelf-lingering seems to suggest it didn't work. So where do they go from here? They're still stuck with the stock. Lowering prices is an embarassing move for them. Will they just can it after Strongbox?

tbt

[amg]

Lowering prices is an embarassing move for them. Will they just can it after Strongbox?

Maybe some of these barrels will become the next BMH offering.

[squire]

Whatever they do I'm sure they will turn a profit.

[The Black Tot]

True. I don't think they will be the profits they were gloating about, though.

Bulleit isn't exactly setting the whiskey world on fire, either.

tbt

[The Black Tot]

Come to think of it, they probably blew it by not restoring Stitzel Weller's distilling operations and making that "who cares?" plant elsewhere (no offense to the fine people who will be involved in making what might be great whiskey there, but SW was already legendary).

Had they done a really good job of refurbishing and creating a great whiskey at SW ("Old Stitz?") and done it above board, maybe they could have won everyone over and their older stock could have ridden that rising tide of reputation...

We'll never know.

tbt

[petrel800]

Come to think of it, they probably blew it by not restoring Stitzel Weller's distilling operations and making that "who cares?" plant elsewhere (no offense to the fine people who will be involved in making what might be great whiskey there, but SW was already legendary).

Had they done a really good job of refurbishing and creating a great whiskey at SW ("Old Stitz?") and done it above board, maybe they could have won everyone over and their older stock could have ridden that rising tide of reputation...

We'll never know.

tbt

It's my understanding that the SW distillery is in such disrepair that its better, cheaper and more efficient to just build a new one.

[The Black Tot]

It's my understanding that the SW distillery is in such disrepair that its better, cheaper and more efficient to just build a new one.

Cheaper and more efficient, yes. But better? Not sure. How much is that marketability worth?

tbt

[smokinjoe]

It's my understanding that the SW distillery is in such disrepair that its better, cheaper and more efficient to just build a new one.

From what I've read, that's my understanding, too. Plus, who's to say the whiskey that would come out of a utile S-W distillery would be worth a damn, anyway? Hell, the whiskey coming out at the end of that distillery was inferior to earlier years , by many accounts. Finally, if they were to resurrect it, and mention one word of it in a positive light, we'd hear a constant line of know-it-alls bitching how it was another Diageo Marketing attempt to bamboozle the whiskey drinking populous, while wishing them total failure in the endeavor. So, to suggest that reviving S-W was the better alternative is nonsensical.

[The Black Tot]

You are right that there is no overestimating the curmudgeonry of whiskey fans.

I don't know if it's nonsense, though. I haven't seen the numbers on what it would have cost, and neither have most of us. They dropped $2M just to make a visitor center out of it.

And if they really do it, and respect it, it's not bamboozling.

Who's to say the whiskey would be worth a damn? I don't know - you hire good people, and give them the support they need, and you give it a shot. Who's to say it wouldn't be worth a damn?

Lots of distilleries around the world go dark or get damaged and then get refurbished and get their groove back. What's a 15 year gap in a 100 year history?

I'm also hoping something cool comes from the Old Taylor site.

tbt

Edited August 16, 2014 by The Black Tot