Confess Your Unpopular Bourbon Opinion

[Charlutz]

On 4/15/2019 at 2:41 AM, BrokeCal said:

OK now I feel bad for at least not stating one of my true unpopular opinions. So here it goes...

 

Bunkering to a point is OK, but sometimes it's pure idiocy.  Some people will bunker something they've never had just because it is rare and hard to find.  Then they let it sit there, for years sometimes.  Life is short friends, I've known way too many people that have passed away far before their time should have been up.  Drink and enjoy today.  Stash lots of extra bottles for sure, but if you have one you've never even tried in your cabinet.... Drink it!

 

Second, highly related opinion, there are hundreds of bourbons accessible to all of us. For anyone to get worked up over a tiny handful of labels and get crazed to the point of obsession over them is lunacy.  Our love of a spirit is crazy enough as it is!!!! We don't need to add to it by acting like whining children obsessing over a toy when he already has hundreds of toys lying around him.

Those sound like pretty popular opinions around these forums!

[mosugoji64]

On 4/13/2019 at 5:45 PM, WhiskeyBlender said:

My god, I can't believe that I'm about to confess this, but what the heck: I absolutely LOVE bourbon and Coke cocktails.

 

 

 

I got to know the woman who is now my wife over several glasses of Beam & Coke. It holds a special place in my heart as well. Plus, there's something about that youthful, yeasty JB White flavor that lends itself perfectly to pairing with Coke. It's not something I drink often these days, but it's perfect when the craving hits! 

[kaiserhog]

That anything over $50 is overpriced and overrated.

[lcpfratn]

 
I got to know the woman who is now my wife over several glasses of Beam & Coke. It holds a special place in my heart as well. Plus, there's something about that youthful, yeasty JB White flavor that lends itself perfectly to pairing with Coke. It's not something I drink often these days, but it's perfect when the craving hits! 

That was my drink for years in my late teens and early twenties. For some reason, it tasted better than Jack & Coke to me.

[WhiskeyBlender]

22 hours ago, mosugoji64 said:

 

I got to know the woman who is now my wife over several glasses of Beam & Coke. It holds a special place in my heart as well. Plus, there's something about that youthful, yeasty JB White flavor that lends itself perfectly to pairing with Coke. It's not something I drink often these days, but it's perfect when the craving hits! 

Wow, that's a romantic story! I don't have it that often either these days, but when I need a little liquid comfort food, J&C certainly provides! 

[HoustonNit]

Wow, that's a romantic story! I don't have it that often either these days, but when I need a little liquid comfort food, J&C certainly provides! 

Ok clearly all these posts of Jack and Coke or bourbon and Coke that are in the thread are not an unpopular opinion. I use to like an occasional bourbon and ginger. However all this talk is making me crave Jack and Coke. There’s a place in Houston close to my house called Under The Volcano. They do a frozen Jack and Coke which I think I’ll try tomorrow.

[jwperry]

1 Cherry Coke (zero in my case) > Coke when mixed with any whiskey

2 if I was trapped on a desert island and had to pick 2 booze for my life it would be Maker's Mark & Jack Daniels Rye.

[BigRich]

1 Cherry Coke (zero in my case) > Coke when mixed with any whiskey

2 if I was trapped on a desert island and had to pick 2 booze for my life it would be Maker's Mark & Jack Daniels Rye.

That’s it! Thread closed!



Just kidding

[HoustonNit]

1 Cherry Coke (zero in my case) > Coke when mixed with any whiskey

 

2 if I was trapped on a desert island and had to pick 2 booze for my life it would be Maker's Mark & Jack Daniels Rye.

 

Perry just won this thread.

[smokinjoe]

43 minutes ago, jwperry said:

1 Cherry Coke (zero in my case) > Coke when mixed with any whiskey

2 if I was trapped on a desert island and had to pick 2 booze for my life it would be Maker's Mark & Jack Daniels Rye.

3.  Desert island....Mrs. Howell?

 

 

 

[fishnbowljoe]

16 minutes ago, smokinjoe said:

3.  Desert island....Mrs. Howell?

 

 

 

Mary Ann! 

 

Biba! Joe

[jwperry]

Mary Ann! [emoji14]
 
Biba! Joe

3.  Desert island....Mrs. Howell?
 
[emoji3]
 
 

Whichever one is the redhead.

I'll add a 3rd) I hate Fred Minnick

Anything whiskey he touches either becomes unobtanium or 200%+ in price.

[HoustonNit]

Whichever one is the redhead.

I'll add a 3rd) I hate Fred Minnick

Anything whiskey he touches either becomes unobtanium or 200%+ in price.

Ginger by a mile.

[Kepler]

2 hours ago, jwperry said:

3rd) I hate Fred Minnick

Anything whiskey he touches either becomes unobtanium or 200%+ in price.

 

 

 

 

Haha, bravo

Edited April 20, 2019 by Kepler

[alcoholica]

Really late to the party.  Sorry, I didn’t read all 15 pages, so some of this may have been stated already. 

 

- yes on Fred Minnick. Not just him but anyone who takes bourbon that seriously. It’s great to geek out and learn things, but he takes himself way too seriously. 

 

- any bourbon drinker who tries to leverage rare bottles as a status. Usually the same ones will throw out a rare label as their favorite just because it’s a distillery only or some such. 

 

- Jim Beam, not the bourbon, but the company. They are leading the way on a lot of what we don’t like happening. Losing age statements, artificial price gouging, crappy line extensions. Just hope the the bubble bursts soon, before too much money is spent building too much infrastructure 

[ThirstyinOhio]

27 minutes ago, alcoholica said:

 

- Jim Beam, not the bourbon, but the company. They are leading the way on a lot of what we don’t like happening. Losing age statements, artificial price gouging, crappy line extensions. Just hope the the bubble bursts soon, before too much money is spent building too much infrastructure 

I can't argue with the line extensions, but at least they did add two whiskies WITH age statements over the last few years, BH 10 year and the KC 15 years.  Not to mention that their single barrel program is now one of the best from the big guys since they usually offer much older whiskey (13-14+yr) than what is found in the standard off the shelf KC which makes it far more interesting to me than a private pick of Blanton's, ER, or EC which I find often inferior to "off the shelf" bottles any more.

Edited April 22, 2019 by ThirstyinOhio

[alcoholica]

29 minutes ago, ThirstyinOhio said:

I can't argue with the line extensions, but at least they did add two whiskies WITH age statements over the last few years, BH 10 year and the KC 15 years.  Not to mention that their single barrel program is now one of the best from the big guys since they usually offer much older whiskey (13-14+yr) than what is found in the standard off the shelf KC which makes it far more interesting to me than a private pick of Blanton's, ER, or EC which I find often inferior to "off the shelf" bottles any more.

To each is own, I’ve yet to find anyone that said BH 10 was even close to expectations.

 

KC 15yr? Are you referring to the 2001? I haven’t heard anything good about that one either. The 25th Anniversary is great tho. 

 

I keep hearing mixed reviews on the barrel program because age doesn’t mean good and apparently there are a lot of so-so barrels out there. I don’t normally buy store picks here in FL because we typically have big box store picks.  Not like in KY where I purchased several stellar picks. So my experience is limited. 

 

Again, to each is own. I own plenty of Beam products....plenty. I just don’t like how they are responding to the boom, and it really is probably more Suntori than Beam because Maker’s pulled their crap too. 

[PowderKeg]

On 4/19/2019 at 7:53 PM, smokinjoe said:

3.  Desert island....Mrs. Howell?

 

 

 

 

On 4/19/2019 at 8:12 PM, fishnbowljoe said:

Mary Ann! 

 

Biba! Joe

 

On 4/19/2019 at 8:48 PM, jwperry said:

 

 

 

Whichever one is the redhead.
....

 

 

 

 

On 4/19/2019 at 8:54 PM, HoustonNit said:

 

Ginger by a mile.

 

Nah, Mary Ann is the best choice - Ginger will only guzzle it, but farm girl Mary Ann can distill more...

[kevinbrink]

11 hours ago, alcoholica said:

- Buffalo Trace/Sazerac, not the bourbon, but the company. They are leading the way on a lot of what we don’t like happening. Losing age statements, artificial price gouging, crappy line extensions. Just hope the the bubble bursts soon, before too much money is spent building too much infrastructure 

Fixed it for you 

[lcpfratn]

Fixed it for you 

LOL! I probably agree with that more too...but his original comment was in the unpopular opinion thread, so there’s that.

[kevinbrink]

1 minute ago, lcpfratn said:

LOL! I probably agree with that more too...but his original comment was in the unpopular opinion thread, so there’s that.

Fair point though in the hearts and minds of many BT/Saz can do no wrong and Beam holds no cachet, the views of this forum certainly tend to trend a little more down the middle. 

[alcoholica]

1 hour ago, kevinbrink said:

Fixed it for you 

Can't really say I agree with replacing them for what I've said about Beam, but they are certainly playing their own part.  And I certainly don't think they are as far down the wormhole, but they are in it. Out of curiosity what are they doing that's bothering you?

 

While I have no proof, I certainly think a lot of the initial "allocation" talk was nonsense, but it ended with what appears to be legit allocations.  The CYPB label is a rip, IMHO.  But they have come out against the secondary market. Outside of the AA10, I don't remember the loss of any age statement, although Eagle Rare's got moved to the back. Their move off the Bourbon Trail is disappointing. They are certainly milking this for all it's worth, but I don't think they are as big an offender as Beam.  And I'm not a Beam hater, the bulk of my bunker is old age stated Beam products.

 

I really can't think of a distillery that isn't trying to take advantage. Although, it does appear that WT is blending in some older stocks now. Not sure how I feel about the Master's Keep bit, because I've only tried Decades (loved it), but it feels like they kind of got forced into having to do something. 4R also doesn't appear to be doing anything too shady, but I'm probably also not in the know on a lot of what the distilleries are pulling. 

 

Having followed the craft beer bubble, we aren't too far off in bourbon. The biggest thing I remember is breweries sacrificing their core line so they could produce rare releases. Everyone chased the unicorns. Beers like Marshall Zhukov sold out in 15 mins. 200 person lines for Bourbon County Stout. People got tired of it and now Marshall Zhukov sits for months. But the damage  was done to the core lines couldn't be undone. Cigar City, the producer of Marshall Zhukov and numerous other fantastic limited/seasonal releases, neglected Jai Alai and Maduro and Cubano Expresso. Other IPA's were able to take hold and overall quality went to crap for the others.

 

I say all of that to explain why my comment was about Beam. The 8 y/o Black Label is far superior to the new label. Basil Hayden's 8 y/o to whatever this is now. KC 9 y/o vs today. Booker's intentional supply restriction so they bump up the price. OGD moving to 80 pf from 86. OC Reserve leaving the shelves. Age doesn't matter, but in markets like this, it really does in an overall macro look. So quality is dropping to a large extent. Should it be dropping? Or should Beam have just discontinued some lines and concentrated on their core labels and brought back labels as stock quantity and quality improved? Instead, we get some really bad Basil Hayden line extensions and some KC Rye line extensions (which I haven't tried yet, so I can't comment).

 

Just seems like we're definitely headed toward a pop in the bubble in the next few years as the craft distilleries come online and stop buying their juice from MGP, 4R and the like. With the success of New Riff and Wilderness Trail....and distilleries outside of KY....there may be some real viable options in a few short years. Not sure if it's an unpopular opinion, but i'd love for the bubble to pop.

[kevinbrink]

1 minute ago, alcoholica said:

Can't really say I agree with replacing them for what I've said about Beam, but they are certainly playing their own part.  And I certainly don't think they are as far down the wormhole, but they are in it. Out of curiosity what are they doing that's bothering you?

 

While I have no proof, I certainly think a lot of the initial "allocation" talk was nonsense, but it ended with what appears to be legit allocations.  The CYPB label is a rip, IMHO.  But they have come out against the secondary market. Outside of the AA10, I don't remember the loss of any age statement, although Eagle Rare's got moved to the back. Their move off the Bourbon Trail is disappointing. They are certainly milking this for all it's worth, but I don't think they are as big an offender as Beam.  And I'm not a Beam hater, the bulk of my bunker is old age stated Beam products.

 

I really can't think of a distillery that isn't trying to take advantage. Although, it does appear that WT is blending in some older stocks now. Not sure how I feel about the Master's Keep bit, because I've only tried Decades (loved it), but it feels like they kind of got forced into having to do something. 4R also doesn't appear to be doing anything too shady, but I'm probably also not in the know on a lot of what the distilleries are pulling. 

 

Having followed the craft beer bubble, we aren't too far off in bourbon. The biggest thing I remember is breweries sacrificing their core line so they could produce rare releases. Everyone chased the unicorns. Beers like Marshall Zhukov sold out in 15 mins. 200 person lines for Bourbon County Stout. People got tired of it and now Marshall Zhukov sits for months. But the damage  was done to the core lines couldn't be undone. Cigar City, the producer of Marshall Zhukov and numerous other fantastic limited/seasonal releases, neglected Jai Alai and Maduro and Cubano Expresso. Other IPA's were able to take hold and overall quality went to crap for the others.

 

I say all of that to explain why my comment was about Beam. The 8 y/o Black Label is far superior to the new label. Basil Hayden's 8 y/o to whatever this is now. KC 9 y/o vs today. Booker's intentional supply restriction so they bump up the price. OGD moving to 80 pf from 86. OC Reserve leaving the shelves. Age doesn't matter, but in markets like this, it really does in an overall macro look. So quality is dropping to a large extent. Should it be dropping? Or should Beam have just discontinued some lines and concentrated on their core labels and brought back labels as stock quantity and quality improved? Instead, we get some really bad Basil Hayden line extensions and some KC Rye line extensions (which I haven't tried yet, so I can't comment).

 

Just seems like we're definitely headed toward a pop in the bubble in the next few years as the craft distilleries come online and stop buying their juice from MGP, 4R and the like. With the success of New Riff and Wilderness Trail....and distilleries outside of KY....there may be some real viable options in a few short years. Not sure if it's an unpopular opinion, but i'd love for the bubble to pop.

Off the top of my head there is one age stated BT/Saz bourbon in regular rotation ER, in the last few years Ancient Age, Old Charter, Very Old Barton BIB (all of which compounded the issue with deceptive labeling). While many of their brands get harder to find they expanded with the CEHT Line, Stagg Jr, Weller CYPB, and coming soon Weller Full proof.  I agree that there have been some real odd decisions by Beam in terms of value but for whatever fault people point at them for releasing the KC LE Bourbons if you called them something other than KC people would line up for 13-14 year old high proof bourbon at their price. Clearly some age statements fell by the wayside but KC didn't become KC number 9 and the single barrels are actually disclosing more info now with the new labeling.  I think KC's profile has changed a little for the worse but it's not as night and day as current batches of ETL are to older ones, you just don't get to know how different those are since BT has always favored publishing "age statements" in their marketing materials. Many of  Beam's brand extensions have been on paper very good values, KC Rye Barrel Proof, Distiller's Cut, Repeal Batch, KC Rye Single Barrel, etc.

 

It is all frustrating though and I get your comparison to craft beer if you want to draw a straight line all you have to do is look at Adjuncts in the craft beer world as a direct comparison to barrel finishing. I think the bubble burst in distilling will be far less dramatic  than what is happening in craft beer though if only for the economics, distilling is far less attractive because the runway to making money is far longer than in craft beer so the number of new distilleries isn't increasing at the same pace as breweries did. I was pretty deep in beer for 15 or so years but the abundance of new dopey IPA's and Adjunct laden beers lost me for the most part a few years back. Traditionalism might be the other aspect of Whiskey that keeps it from the dramatic bubble burst. 

[PaulO]

To above comments, is there any major bourbon distiller that has not done all these things in the past couple years to maximize profit?

Given that, I see BT/Sazerac and B-F as the worst offenders.

[flahute]

1 hour ago, alcoholica said:

Just seems like we're definitely headed toward a pop in the bubble in the next few years as the craft distilleries come online and stop buying their juice from MGP, 4R and the like. With the success of New Riff and Wilderness Trail....and distilleries outside of KY....there may be some real viable options in a few short years. Not sure if it's an unpopular opinion, but i'd love for the bubble to pop.

We've been talking about when the bubble will pop for about 5 years now on these pages and it still grows. If you think the pop will occur because of the craft distilleries, you should check the numbers. The combined distilling capacity of all the craft distilleries is still a literal drop in the bucket compared to the majors. And, the majority of it sucks monkey balls. 

Also, 4R doesn't sell to anyone right now. They are putting everything they have into catching up after selling to Bulleit for so many years.

 

Regarding Beam, I sort of agree with you. I've been critical of them for a few years on these pages. They aren't being shady, it's more a lack of good planning and poor leadership.