Early Times BiB

[gurgalunas]

A few buddies were discussing ET BiB, the sale of the brand, and potential for change of the product.  We figured if there were changes, it may be noticed in the "Distilled By" notation.

 

No such luck though, as its labeled as Early Times Distillery, but DSP KY 354 and DSP KY 414 are listed.  That's Early Times distillery in L'ville and BF distillery in Shively.  Presumably these numbers would have to change if different sources of bourbon are introduced.

 

The question I have is, since its BiB product, how can there be 2 DSP numbers on the bottle.  The requirements of BiB include being made in one distillery...

 

Anyone have a guess how this is possible?

[flahute]

6 minutes ago, gurgalunas said:

A few buddies were discussing ET BiB, the sale of the brand, and potential for change of the product.  We figured if there were changes, it may be noticed in the "Distilled By" notation.

 

No such luck though, as its labeled as Early Times Distillery, but DSP KY 354 and DSP KY 414 are listed.  That's Early Times distillery in L'ville and BF distillery in Shively.  Presumably these numbers would have to change if different sources of bourbon are introduced.

 

The question I have is, since its BiB product, how can there be 2 DSP numbers on the bottle.  The requirements of BiB include being made in one distillery...

 

Anyone have a guess how this is possible?

Distilled in one, bottled in the other.

[flahute]

Since the sale just happened, it will be a while until the label changes to reflect BT being the distillery.

It is not known (to my knowledge) if existing aging stocks were part of the sale. If so, then it will be a few years depending on how big of a roll out BT intends.

If not, then I'd expect to see BT distilled bottles fairly soon.

[Jazz June]

Aging stocks were included, per: https://www.fredminnick.com/2020/06/15/sazerac-acquires-early-times-from-brown-forman/

[flahute]

18 minutes ago, Jazz June said:

Aging stocks were included, per: https://www.fredminnick.com/2020/06/15/sazerac-acquires-early-times-from-brown-forman/

Thank you for the clarification!

[Jazz June]

There are some interesting questions here though, even if in the short term Early Times BiB will continue with B-F distillate bottled by Sazerac. When that B-F distillate runs out (or even before then), will Sazerac continue a bottled in bond expression of Early Times? And where will they distill it: BT, Barton, or somewhere else (their other facilities are outside Kentucky, which creates a labeling issue of its own)?

 

My guesses are they will drop the BiB designation to avoid disclosing the distillery and that they will distill it at Barton, but that's pure speculation. I also wonder what will happen to Early Times Kentucky Whiskey. This product doesn't fit with any current Sazerac products in its use of used barrels and also doesn't fit with an all premium brand approach that Sazerac appears to have moved to (Benchmark and Old Charter being the last of the BT distilled brands to be made "premium" in recent years with new expressions). Even Barton appears headed in this direction, with Tom Moore being turned into a Thomas Moore finished bourbon series. I will be among you who are sad if they eliminate the great value of the current Very Old Barton line.

[webfoots]

“To be labeled as bottled-in-bond or bonded, the liquor must be the product of one distillation season (January–June or July–December) by one distiller at one distillery. It must have been aged in a federally bonded warehouse under U.S. government supervision for at least four years and bottled at 100 (U.S.) proof (50% alcohol by volume). The bottled product's label must identify the distillery where it was distilled and, if different, where it was bottled.[2][3] Only spirits produced in the United States may be designated as bonded.“

 

This is the reason the CEHT Rye lists both DSP-KY-113 (BT) and DSP-KY-12 (Barton). It’s presumably distilled at Barton and bottled at BT.  The BT Early Times will either have to list both to keep the BiB label or remove it.

[flahute]

11 minutes ago, Jazz June said:

There are some interesting questions here though, even if in the short term Early Times BiB will continue with B-F distillate bottled by Sazerac. When that B-F distillate runs out (or even before then), will Sazerac continue a bottled in bond expression of Early Times? And where will they distill it: BT, Barton, or somewhere else (their other facilities are outside Kentucky, which creates a labeling issue of its own)?

 

My guesses are they will drop the BiB designation to avoid disclosing the distillery and that they will distill it at Barton, but that's pure speculation. I also wonder what will happen to Early Times Kentucky Whiskey. This product doesn't fit with any current Sazerac products in its use of used barrels and also doesn't fit with an all premium brand approach that Sazerac appears to have moved to (Benchmark and Old Charter being the last of the BT distilled brands to be made "premium" in recent years with new expressions). Even Barton appears headed in this direction, with Tom Moore being turned into a Thomas Moore finished bourbon series. I will be among you who are sad if they eliminate the great value of the current Very Old Barton line.

Part of the appeal for this brand is the historical brand name along with the BIB designation. If I were to guess I'd bet that it gets distilled at Barton and keeps the designation because they have capacity and they already have BIB infrastructure in place. Barton distillate is also closer to OF distillate, at least to my palate.

I would not be surprised if your guess also comes true. You just never know with Sazerac.

[FasterHorses]

Wonder why BF would sell.. ive read where this (ET not ET BiB)is the best selling whiskey worldwide. 

[Harry in WashDC]

2 hours ago, FasterHorses said:

Wonder why BF would sell.. ive read where this (ET not ET BiB)is the best selling whiskey worldwide. 

Fascinating.  I thought Jack Daniels Black and Jim Beam White were the two top sellers of American Whiskey worldwide.  FastHore, more info would get me through the next few rainy/muddy days.  Without your input, I may be forced to do dreaded YARDWORK!!

[PaulO]

It makes perfect sense to me Sazerac would buy the Early Times, at least for the 80 proof whiskey.  ET is sold in every store, and no doubt has loyal customers.  Used cooperage is something Sazerac no doubt has, so can use it for this.  Keep the stills running, with more capacity.  Every big operation needs a bottom shelf brand.

The bonded version, I suppose, we will just wait and see what they do with that.

[FasterHorses]

2 minutes ago, Harry in WashDC said:

Fascinating.  I thought Jack Daniels Black and Jim Beam White were the two top sellers of American Whiskey worldwide.  FastHore, more info would get me through the next few rainy/muddy days.  Without your input, I may be forced to do dreaded YARDWORK!!

Maybe i misremembered.. this is from Wiki.. i’ll keep looking tonite if i remember.

The Brown-Forman Company acquired the Early Times brand in 1923,^[4] and over the next 30 years made Early Times the best-selling whisky in the country.^[4] Today the brand is sold in over 40 countries.^[4] It ranks as one of the top four selling bourbons in the world, and in 2005 it became the top selling Kentucky whisky in Japan.^[4]

[Harry in WashDC]

Just now, FasterHorses said:

Maybe i misremembered.. this is from Wiki.. i’ll keep looking tonite if i remember.

The Brown-Forman Company acquired the Early Times brand in 1923,^[4] and over the next 30 years made Early Times the best-selling whisky in the country.^[4] Today the brand is sold in over 40 countries.^[4] It ranks as one of the top four selling bourbons in the world, and in 2005 it became the top selling Kentucky whisky in Japan.^[4]

AHA!!  THANKS!  It may not save me from yardwork in the mud, but at least I'll go happily!

[fishnbowljoe]

The title of #1 selling whiskey in the world is open to a little bit of speculation, and can also be subject to which website you go to. In doing just a little research, my head is spinning, and I could use a drink.  Here’s a few things I discovered. Some lists were compiled regarding individual whiskeys/whiskies. Other lists considered the brand or contingent. One website I found actually dealt with overall sales volumes instead of monetary amounts. If any of y’all have some time on your hands, there’s some interesting reading out there to say the least. 

 

FWIW, a number of lists have Jack Daniels and Johnny Walker vying for the top spot. Again, things to consider are whether it’s JD vs JW Red, or the entire Jack vs Johnny lineups. Things that make you go hmmmm. 

 

Biba! Joe

[Harry in WashDC]

I am just "happy" enough from my New Years Day imbibing while watching college FB teams in which I have no abiding interest to spend the next several hours perusing (A) multiple websites in order to (b) determine WHATTHEHECK I looking for so I can (III) opine on whatever #1(A) is.

 

What were we talking about?  The ham is almost done, and its aroma is spreading throughout the house.

 

I'm pretty sure Alabama is playing in the game I am watching.  Rutgers' colors are the same, so maybe . . .

 

Oooh!  I just remembered - an SBer brought me an ET BIB after last Fall's Sampler.  I wonder where I put it . . .

[smokinjoe]

Chuck on Early Times:

https://thewhiskeywash.com/whiskey-styles/american-whiskey/157-year-history-early-times-kentucky-whisky/
 

[fishnbowljoe]

I wonder what part, if any, used barrels played in the sale? BF has it’s own cooperage, yet until the ET BIB came along,  used barrels were used for making regular ET. Does Saz/BT, plan on using new or used barrels for regular ET?  

Biba! Joe

[mbroo5880i]

I had always thought the top selling whiskies were Johnnie, Jack and then Jim, the three JJJs, in that order.  I do find it interesting the volume of bottom shelf "whiskey" that seems to move today.  I wonder how many ET drinkers moved up to ET 354 or ET BIB.  I am guessing few.  These versions seem geared to a different demographic.  It is really interesting to look at some of the bottom shelf "whiskey" brands only to realize they were once "straight bourbon" brands with historical significance.  Many were very popular in their day. 

[HoustonNit]

I’m currently in France which for years held the title for most whiskey consumption by nation.  That is until the Japanese took over and I wouldn’t be suprised with recent consumer patterns that the US or even India has now taken over.

 

In France for bourbon it’s Jack and suprisngly second would be Four Roses.  Certainly see yellow label 4R here way more than JB or ET.

 

That being said I would expect the French overwhelmingly consume Scotch over bourbon.  From the very high end to the worst blended rotgut you could imagine.

 

Wasn’t it ET and Old Stagg that battled it out bourbons heyday for no. 1 brand?

 

[VAGentleman]

Here's a good recent article from Chuck Cowdery on the #1 selling whiskey vs brand

http://chuckcowdery.blogspot.com/2020/09/is-jack-daniels-1-selling-whiskey-in.html

[Hatchertiger]

Got my sense of taste back for New Years after having COVID  and tried ET bib. I like it period. When you consider the price it almost isn't fair. RE bibs, think ET has passed up EW and OGD for me.  Having said that, think I want to do a blind bib taste and see how that turns out.

[Jazz June]

Another interesting factor in the "best-selling" debate is that there are products labelled whisky in India that don't meet US/EU standards to be called whisk(e)y, but nonetheless sell more than JW or JD. I believe India is actually the largest market for whiskey, but that this argument over the definition of whisk(e)y has lead to some fairly protectionist trade rules that make US and EU products less competitive.

 

This article (https://www.forbes.com/sites/felipeschrieberg/2020/07/05/best-selling-whisky-brands-top-25/?sh=102dae945aef) has four products from India above JW (and three more in the top ten), although I'm not sure whether they would or would not be whiskey under our typical conception (I suspect not).

 

It seems that JW is probably the top selling brand and JD Black is the top selling expression. Jim Beam is the top seller labelled "bourbon." While these are not products I drink often, it is interesting to keep this stuff in mind because it affects distribution of other products from these companies, in particular in the international markets that are opening to American whiskey more and more. In my travels outside the U.S., Jack Daniel's and Jim Beam appear to be the Budweiser of American whiskey, with their corporate brethren Woodford Reserve and Maker's Mark often the other options I might see abroad. Four Roses also has some strength internationally, but it is rare to see Sazerac or Heaven Hill products in Europe in my experience. Turkey does at least a decent amount of business in Japan, but I can't recall seeing them much in the EU, which strikes me as odd given Campari's ownership.

[Shell]

On 1/1/2021 at 6:16 PM, fishnbowljoe said:

The title of #1 selling whiskey in the world is open to a little bit of speculation, and can also be subject to which website you go to. In doing just a little research, my head is spinning, and I could use a drink.  Here’s a few things I discovered. Some lists were compiled regarding individual whiskeys/whiskies. Other lists considered the brand or contingent. One website I found actually dealt with overall sales volumes instead of monetary amounts. If any of y’all have some time on your hands, there’s some interesting reading out there to say the least. 

 

FWIW, a number of lists have Jack Daniels and Johnny Walker vying for the top spot. Again, things to consider are whether it’s JD vs JW Red, or the entire Jack vs Johnny lineups. Things that make you go hmmmm. 

 

Biba! Joe

This Sept. 6. 2020 piece, https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradjaphe/2020/09/06/the-worlds-most-popular-american-whiskey-by-the-numbers/?sh=17c624a958c3, displays a ranking of the best-selling American whiskey globally.  The piece references data from the IWSR data base (theiwsr.com -a leading source of data on global beverage alcohol market).  According to these data, Jack Daniel's is the largest seller globally of American whiskey - selling 1/3 more than its closest American whiskey competitor.    (Listed as #2-Jim Beam; #3-Evan Williams; #4-Maker's Mark).  (IWSR reports both volume and retail value data - however, I believe the Forbes reported data are based on volume.)

 

The Spirits Business' 2020 report (based on 2019 millions of cases) also lists Jack Daniel's as the best-selling American whiskey globally.    (Listed as #2-Jim Beam; #3-Maker's Mark).  See: https://www.thespiritsbusiness.com/2020/06/world-whisky-brand-champion-2020-crown-royal.)

 

Shell

[Shell]

On 1/5/2021 at 3:59 PM, Jazz June said:

Another interesting factor in the "best-selling" debate is that there are products labelled whisky in India that don't meet US/EU standards to be called whisk(e)y, but nonetheless sell more than JW or JD. I believe India is actually the largest market for whiskey, but that this argument over the definition of whisk(e)y has lead to some fairly protectionist trade rules that make US and EU products less competitive.

 

This article (https://www.forbes.com/sites/felipeschrieberg/2020/07/05/best-selling-whisky-brands-top-25/?sh=102dae945aef) has four products from India above JW (and three more in the top ten), although I'm not sure whether they would or would not be whiskey under our typical conception (I suspect not).

 

It seems that JW is probably the top selling brand and JD Black is the top selling expression. Jim Beam is the top seller labelled "bourbon." While these are not products I drink often, it is interesting to keep this stuff in mind because it affects distribution of other products from these companies, in particular in the international markets that are opening to American whiskey more and more. In my travels outside the U.S., Jack Daniel's and Jim Beam appear to be the Budweiser of American whiskey, with their corporate brethren Woodford Reserve and Maker's Mark often the other options I might see abroad. Four Roses also has some strength internationally, but it is rare to see Sazerac or Heaven Hill products in Europe in my experience. Turkey does at least a decent amount of business in Japan, but I can't recall seeing them much in the EU, which strikes me as odd given Campari's ownership.

As far as largest whiskey/whisky sales globally: According to Spirits Business' data, Johnnie Walker sells 18.4 M cases annually (in 2019) - outselling Jack Daniel's 13.4 M cases.  

 

However, 4 Indian whisky brands all sell more whisky - with McDowell's No. 1 Whisky selling 30.7 M cases.  As the second largest country by population, India is a huge market - with  of 1.39 billion people as of 2021.

 

Shell

[Shell]

Jazz June, Sorry that I didn’t see you had already posted the Forbes article on most popular American whisky globally.