Early Times BiB

[flahute]

On 4/22/2022 at 5:50 PM, IamMatt said:

Now that some reviews/comparisons are out, it looks like most tasters consider the Sax product markedly inferior to the BF product.  Some have said that the juice that used to go into the BF ET BIB will now go to Cooper's Craft Reserve.  Dunno.  Both Cooper's Craft and ET BIB were not distributed here in CA, but a friend got me a bottle of the Cooper's Craft Reserve (yummy) and ET BIB is dropping in CA now that Saz owns it (I've seen it as low as $17 and as high as $26 so far).  I have a friend with a bottle of the BF ET BIB so I am hoping to get a bottle of the Saz BIB and do a blind with BF ET BIB, Saz ET BIB, OF 100, OF Signature (I have an old bottle of Signature that IMHO is way better than the current OF 100), and Cooper's Craft Reserve.  I will report my findings if the blind happens.

This makes no sense. It's still OF distillate and aged. Saz hasn't had it long enough to materially change it and their own distillate is still years off.

[IamMatt]

I don't know how old ET BIB actually was, nor the nuts and bolts of their distilling and aging, but let's assume it was 4 years old.  If  Saz bought it in 2020, could they

 

1) be leaving the barrels aging at BF then just transporting and bottling traditional ET BIB at a Saz facility?  Should taste the same.

 

2) take distillate from BF that is anywhere from 0 to 4 years old and aging it at a Saz facility instead of BF's heat-cycled warehouses?  Would likely taste different.

 

3) just get a different profile by using a Saz blender instead of an ET/BF blender?  Saz has expanded their distribution to more states than BF did, meaning they need more barrels, so maybe they are including barrels that BF might have rejected to increase volume?  Should definitely taste different.

 

I don't know how or why, but the reviews I have seen--including blinds--tend to say the Saz is significantly different.  If I am not mistaken, there was no new (Saz) ET BIB between around 2020 when they bought it and now, so the 2-year gap might suggest some changes.  That is, if they were just bottling exiting ET BIB stock, it might have continued distribution unabated.  The 2-year gap MIGHT also be because Saz knew their version was going to be different, and they wanted to clear as much of the BF version off the shelves as possible to avoid easy direct comparison?

 

Will we ever really know?

[flahute]

6 hours ago, IamMatt said:

I don't know how old ET BIB actually was, nor the nuts and bolts of their distilling and aging, but let's assume it was 4 years old.  If  Saz bought it in 2020, could they

 

1) be leaving the barrels aging at BF then just transporting and bottling traditional ET BIB at a Saz facility?  Should taste the same.

 

2) take distillate from BF that is anywhere from 0 to 4 years old and aging it at a Saz facility instead of BF's heat-cycled warehouses?  Would likely taste different.

 

3) just get a different profile by using a Saz blender instead of an ET/BF blender?  Saz has expanded their distribution to more states than BF did, meaning they need more barrels, so maybe they are including barrels that BF might have rejected to increase volume?  Should definitely taste different.

 

I don't know how or why, but the reviews I have seen--including blinds--tend to say the Saz is significantly different.  If I am not mistaken, there was no new (Saz) ET BIB between around 2020 when they bought it and now, so the 2-year gap might suggest some changes.  That is, if they were just bottling exiting ET BIB stock, it might have continued distribution unabated.  The 2-year gap MIGHT also be because Saz knew their version was going to be different, and they wanted to clear as much of the BF version off the shelves as possible to avoid easy direct comparison?

 

Will we ever really know?

You make a lot of good points there that could explain it. Now I'm curious to try a sbs of the two.

[IamMatt]

1 hour ago, flahute said:

You make a lot of good points there that could explain it. Now I'm curious to try a sbs of the two.

Most of the YouTube reviews show a marked difference between the two, but I did just see one that says they smell and taste identical.  Dunno if it was this particular reviewer's palate or is it possible that some of the original BF ET BIB juice was bottled and distributed by Saz?

[IamMatt]

Shoulda posted the link to the video that found them the same: 

 

[Kepler]

Without tasting the new bottling, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Sazerac didn't just fill the ET bottles with something like Tom Moore BiB.  Charge the same price as a handle of Tom Moore but they are only out 1.0 liter of juice.  Granted that's a cynical take.

[0895]

1 hour ago, Kepler said:

Without tasting the new bottling, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Sazerac didn't just fill the ET bottles with something like Tom Moore BiB.  Charge the same price as a handle of Tom Moore but they are only out 1.0 liter of juice.  Granted that's a cynical take.

The label still says DSP KY-354 and DSP KY-12.

Assuming B-F bourbon bottled at DSP 12 (Barton) with labeling to meet the BiB requirements.

I believe the glass is the same now as the Ancient Age liters, but I need to do some exact measurements still.

 

 

Edited April 26, 2022 by 0895

[fishnbowljoe]

ET BIB was sold to Saz in the summer of 2020. It was announced that Barton would produce it, and use the same mashbill that BF used.   The bottle in the pic posted  by @0895 indicates distilled at BF, and bottled at Barton. I wonder how much BF distillate was included in the sale, and how long it will last. Aside from the distillate purchased as part of the sale, would Barton have aged distillate of the same mashbill in their stocks that they could use for ET BIB?  

 

Biba! Joe

[IamMatt]

1 hour ago, fishnbowljoe said:

ET BIB was sold to Saz in the summer of 2020. It was announced that Barton would produce it, and use the same mashbill that BF used.   The bottle in the pic posted  by @0895 indicates distilled at BF, and bottled at Barton. I wonder how much BF distillate was included in the sale, and how long it will last. Aside from the distillate purchased as part of the sale, would Barton have aged distillate of the same mashbill in their stocks that they could use for ET BIB?  

 

Biba! Joe

Interesting question.  I checked a couple of sites that report(?) various mash bills.  Don't know how current they are but both show ET as a BF product, and the only other 79-11-10 mashbill they show is Michter's US-1 and Toasted Oak.  Pretty sure Michter's distills their own juice, so it would not be either BF or Barton distillate.  Does that mean Barton did not have any "aged distillate of the same mashbill in their stocks?" It looks unlikely, unless a) they started putting up 79-11-10 BIB juice as early as 2018 in anticipation of needing it after the ET purchase, or b) they were already producing a 79-11-10 BIB juice for someone else under contract and had enough left over to fill ET BIB bottles?  Also seems unlikely that Barton would/could get 79-11-10 BIB juice from Michter's to put in ET BIB bottles.

 

I guess I'm glad they are using the same mashbill as BF, but Benchmark is the same mashbill as Stagg, so that's only a small part of the flavor equation.  My wild guess is that no matter what they do, it will not be possible to recreate the effects of BF's heat-cycled warehouses.  But I could be wrong.  Again.

 

This is more mysterious than Al Capone's vault!  And we will probably end up with the same answer!

[fishnbowljoe]

Reminds me of how Winston Churchill defined Russia back before WWII.  "a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma,”

 

I bought a couple of bottles of ET BIB when it first came out. I finished one, and kept one in my cabinet. I didn’t want to open my last bottle before finding another. Well, you know what they say about the best laid plans? Bought this, bought that, stocked up on favorites, took a flyer on a few things, and never grabbed another bottle of ET BIB. Well, I reckon I know what I gotta do. Hopefully I’ll be able to find another bottle. 
 

Biba! Joe