Old Forester Repeal Bourbon

[StraightBoston]

Anybody else catch this and can share more? I know that I'm intrigued!

http://blog.maltadvocate.com/2008/05/14/new-old-forester-repeal-bourbon/

[Gillman]

Good catch, thanks.

Gary

[mgilbertva]

Very exciting!

I love what BF does with both their regular expressions like the 86pf and BIB OFs (of any year), plus experimental things like the BBs. I'm not a fan of wine-finished whiskeys, so I haven't tried the Woodford SC finish. But you gotta give them credit. BT might have the lead in creativity, but BF is more than deserving of our respect in that department.

Now, with this announcement, I'm even more impressed.

[shaman]

I found this (http://www.oldforester.com/repeal/default.aspx) while on the OF website today and thought I would post it. The links in the original post were suggesting an earlier release than what is currently on the site. Hmmm maybe I can actually answer my wife's question when she asks for some ideas for Christmas gifts...

Will you guys buy any of this? I for one will be on the lookout for it around here.

[TNbourbon]

...Will you guys buy any of this? I for one will be on the lookout for it around here.

Not at any sort of premium. The 100-proof is already available as OF Signature. If the only thing that's different is the bottle, not at all interesting unless it's priced similarly to the Signature. I already know when Repeal was.

[spun_cookie]

Ill do a little 50ml tennis for some of this. I am sure Birdman cannot keep himself from buying a bottle :grin:

[Virus_Of_Life]

If the only thing that's different is the bottle, not at all interesting unless it's priced similarly to the Signature. I already know when Repeal was.

It is not just Signature:

"Malt Advocate’s John Hansell reports that Old Forester will release Repeal Bourbon, this fall, to commemorate the 75th anniversary of the end of Prohibition in the US.

Repeal is a new expression, which Hansell’s post quotes master blender Chris Morris as describing thus: “it is an Old Forester that has more of a robust aged character that is similar to the Old Forester that was bottled during prohibition.†Repeal will be 100-proof, and though the label will make no age claim, Hansell quotes company officials as saying that the whiskey comes from 10-year-old stocks.

Repeal will be packaged in a 375 ml. bottle, similar in size to the pint bottles that were legally produced for “medicinal†purposes between 1919 and 1933, when most alcohol sales were illegal in the US. The Repeal package also includes a parchment scroll of the 21st Amendment to the US Constitution, which ended Prohibition, a snifter, and an Old Forester pen.

Old Forester lays claim to the title of first bottled bourbon brand. The distillery, which is a part of Brown-Foreman, opened its doors in 1970."

And Yes, I'll try it.

[TNbourbon]

Well, okay, Christian (and I think that's 1870 for "opened its doors"), but the 375ml bottle @ c. $24 makes it even less likely I'd buy it. The Birthday Bourbon is often 10 years or older, and a higher-than-standard proof -- at less than double $24.

Frankly -- to me, anyway -- Old Forester/Woodford Reserve bottlings are so much 'of a piece' that I'm not that much interested in minor variations of age and/or proof, especially at a premium price. You want me to spend more, B-F, give me ultra-aged, unfiltered, very young, or off-recipe (and NOT four-grain!:bigeyes:).

[craigthom]

Well, we know there is a market for special bottles. They just want to tap into that. The problem is that the fancy bottle crowd seems stuck on one brand.

[Virus_Of_Life]

Well, okay, Christian (and I think that's 1870 for "opened its doors")

Just did a copy and paste http://thespiritworld.net/2008/06/03/repeal-bourbon-commemorates-prohibitions-end/ and trying to share some info.

[TNbourbon]

Just did a copy and paste http://thespiritworld.net/2008/06/03/repeal-bourbon-commemorates-prohibitions-end/ and trying to share some info.

Probably my mistake, Christian -- DSP-354 probably has only been open since 1970, but Old Forester was made at #414 for many years prior. I was thinking brand, not distillery. Apologies.

(I'll shut up and go away now:deadhorse:)

[cowdery]

It's mostly a commemorative package, except for this:

"Repeal Bourbon is bottled from a special selection of Old Forester barrels that exhibited a more robust character that is similar to the Old Forester that was bottled during Prohibition."

That's from Chris Morris.

He totally would do that, too, taste some actual Prohibition-era Forester, then go looking for a couple of barrels to match it. So it's mostly a packaging thing, but if you do get in there and drink the whiskey, it won't be exactly the same as the standard issue OF Signature.

The label is pretty cool, actually. It's even "stained" with age.

How long do you think it will be before someone tries to sell one of these on eBay as a real Prohibition-era bottle?

[Virus_Of_Life]

It comes with a nice glass too? Chuck has it been released officially now?

[cowdery]

I don't think so. I expect it will be in stores when the other Christmas gift packaging starts to appear, in about two more months, but it's in the pipeline so maybe it will show up sooner. Repeal Day is December 5th. I also don't know the SRP, but spirits gift packages aren't supposed to have any up-charge, by which I mean retailers get grumpy if you charge more for the gift box than you would for that whiskey product without the add-ons, which means it should be priced like any 375 ml of OF Signature. But we'll see. Maybe it will be priced like a 750 ml. It won't be expensive. It'll be cheap enough to use them as party favors for your Repeal Day party.

[cowdery]

I have learned that the suggested retail price for Old Forester Repeal Bourbon is $24.99. It is expected to hit shelves in late November.

[Sijan]

John Hansell of Malt Advocate has posted a review of it here:

http://blog.maltadvocate.com/2008/08/29/review-old-forester-repeal-bourbon/

Advanced Malt Advocate magazine rating: 79

[BourbonJoe]

It'll be cheap enough to use them as party favors for your Repeal Day party.

At 25 bucks for a 375 ml. bottle, I doubt I'll be handing them out as party favors.

Joe :usflag:

[Gillman]

Interesting to read John's taste note. It actually (to me) sounds almost like a Four Roses single barrel special release or some JD single barrels, which may denote the barrels being taken from spots in the warehouse which favor good wood gums extraction due to heat conditions and other factors creating rich, syrupy, spicy and fruity whiskeys.

Certainly spice and fruit seem a characteristic of some Prohibition era or early post-Pro whiskeys as shown by various bottles sampled at Gazebos over the years including some great ones from Tim Sousley.

One thing I get in some of those early whiskeys is a chocolate/molasses/rum character. I also detect this in a number of bourbons made in the 1970's and 1960's which was close enough in era to the 30's for the distillers to be continuing a tradition.

A recent 1983 mini of OG 114 (the date stamped on the right side of the bottle base) was such a whiskey: a rich syrupy whiskey with almost a dark rum palate. Benchmark of the 1960's and 70's was similar but of course milder in palate.

Only occasionally does a whiskey appear with this palate (one made today, I mean). I wonder what accounted for that taste. I don't think it is low distillation proof or barrel entry: that constellation of flavors, the so-called distillery flavors, are not what I am referring to. I believe that the wood used then accounted for this taste if the bourbons and ryes were allowed to age enough.

Today, I can think of AH Hirsch rye 22 years old as displaying that kind of palate. But few other modern whiskeys do. Was Old Forester from before 1920 or in the 1930's of this type? I just don't know but would think not. Forester was a mingling of barrels, some of different years I think, but not probably a well-aged whiskey and I think you need a certain amount of barrel age (10 years plus probably) to create the "chocolate/molasses" palate.

I'd like to try this OF Prohibiiton style whiskey but distillers might consider the palate of 1970's Benchmark, or OG 114 from National Distillers, or 1970's Beam's Choice (that amazing bottle Doug Philips has) as a desirable historical style to return to.

Gary

[Gillman]

Interesting to read John's taste note. It actually (to me) sounds almost like a Four Roses single barrel special release or some JD single barrels, which may denote the barrels being taken from spots in the warehouse which favor due to heat and other factors rich syrupy spicy and fruity whiskeys.

Certainly spice and fruit seem a characteristic of some Prohibition era or early post-Pro whiskeys as shown by various bottles sampled at Gazebos over the years including some great ones from Tim Sousley.

One thing I sometimes get in early whiskeys is a chocolate/molasses/rum character. I detect this too in a number of bourbons made in the 1970's and 1960's which was close enough in era to the 30's for the distillers to be continuing a tradition.

A recent 1983 mini of OG 114 (the date stamped on the right side of the bottle base) was such a whiskey: a rich, dark cocoa whiskey with almost a dark rum palate. Benchmark of the 1960's and 70's was similar but of course milder in palate. The elusive Black Gold (speak to Jeff Y. for further details!) was another such bourbon.

Only occasionally does a whiskey appear with this palate (one made today, I mean). I wonder what accounted for that taste. I don't think it is low distillation proof or barrel entry: that constellation of flavors is not what I am referring to. I believe that the wood used then accounted for this taste if the bourbons and ryes were allowed to age enough. There may have been more to it than choosing whiskeys from the warmest part of the warehouse, but I can't put my finger on what the factors were.

Today, I can think of AH Hirsch rye 22 years old as displaying that kind of palate. Some of the older VW whiskeys, too. But few other whiskeys do. Was Old Forester from before 1920 or in the 1930's of this type? I just don't know.

I'd like to try this OF Prohibition style whiskey but distillers might consider the palate of 1970's Benchmark, or OG 114 from National Distillers, or 1970's Beam's Choice (that amazing bottle Doug Philips has) as a desirable historical style to return to.

Gary

[shoshani]

I notice that BF, on their website, consistently claims that Old Forester is the only US whiskey that has been distilled continuously, even during Prohibition, a claim no other US whiskey can make.

But...what about the old National Distillers stable? Wasn't American Medicinal Spirits Company distilling Old Grand-Dad/Taylor/Crow during that time? And either Stitzel or Weller had a distilling license during Prohibition, which is why Pappy brought them together - the Weller and Fitz labels surely were produced for medicinal purposes during The Noble Experiment. And if I recall correctly Dickel was being produced at the Schenley plant, today's Buffalo Trace, during the Prohibition era.

I'm wanting to toss I. W. Harper into that list as well, but I don't recall offhand whether Bernheim was distilling during Prohibition.

Any historical experts have background on this? Mike Veach, Chuck Cowdery, et al?

[cowdery]

Very little actual distillation took place during Prohibition because there was still so much whiskey around. I'm not sure if BF qualifies it further, but what really makes OF unique is that it has been made by the same company to the same specifications since 1870. "Continuously" is tough because all distilleries shut down from time to time, for a few days, a few weeks or months, sometimes for years, and not just during Prohibition. Many distilleries stopped entirely in the late 70s, early 80s, or only distilled for a couple months of the year, so what's "continuous"?

After Beam shut down Crow in 1987 it became just a brand. It's Beam's whiskey, with no attempt to make Crow the way it used to be. Same with Taylor. Grand-Dad is still made using the classic recipe, so you might have a case with Grand-Dad, although it has been made in a bunch of different places by a bunch of different owners, and it's a newer brand. There are some accounts that place its origins earlier than 1870, but 1882 looks more probable, so Grand-Dad is similar but not as old. Same deal with the Weller and Fitzgerald. There was a Weller company way back when, but the Weller brand was a more recent creation. I'm not sure if the Weller brand even existed before Prohibition. Fitz did, but I don't think it showed up until the 1890s. Crow could make a case for starting earlier, but when they say the only whiskey, as opposed to the only brand of whiskey, then you have to disqualify Crow because it hasn't existed as a distinctive whiskey since 1987.

The Beams can say they've been making whiskey since 1795, but their flagship brand is a post-Prohibition creation. So Forester has a pretty good claim, even though it can be confusing how it all parses out.

[MJL]

Chuck,

Interesting historical perspective. When I was last in Kentucky (July 2008) I noticed most people who were in a place to know spoke in disdaining tones about Old Crow. When challenged they all said the same thing; it is not that it is a bad product now it is that it is not the product it was even a few years ago. I do not have the perspective of 40+ years of Bourbon drinking, and Old Crow was not what I drank when younger so I cannot comment one way or the other but I reckon when one makes Coke taste like Pepsi you are no longer selling Coke no matter what the label says on the outside.

[shoshani]

I'm not sure if BF qualifies it further, but what really makes OF unique is that it has been made by the same company to the same specifications since 1870.

Well...not *exactly*; when Brown started in 1870 he was mingling the product of several distilleries to a profile and bottling that as Old Forester. Very old ads show the label as saying "This whisky is BOTTLED by us only", as opposed to "DISTILLED by us only".

(Actually, the label on Prohibition-era bottlings reads "bottled by us only" as well. Odd. This label variant also says "we alone are responsible for its PURITY" instead of "richness", and that the original fineness is devloped "by age" instead of "with care".)

I'd love to know when Brown-Forman actually began distilling their own make; Old Forester has been produced and aged in three different locations in the last century that I know of. (St. Mary's, Lorretto, then the OF distillery in Louisville, then Early Times in Shively.)

I'm also kinda curious as to whether B-F was actually distilling Forester during the distillation holidays, or whether they were mingling from their stocks. Remember, they bought the Early Times brand, distillery, and assets to get to the stocks of Early Times whiskey in 1923; it's entirely possible that ET wound up being bottled as Old Forester later on - which might explain why the Prohibition-era labels have the same text as the mingled-product labels. "Medicinal" drinkers weren't like us, constantly nosing and comparing this year's version with that of four years ago. They were happy to take what they could get.

After Beam shut down Crow in 1987 it became just a brand. It's Beam's whiskey, with no attempt to make Crow the way it used to be. Same with Taylor.

Yeah, don't remind me. I'm currently nursing my next-to-last pint bottle (okay 500 mL) of ND Old Taylor BiB, distilled 1971 bottled 1980.

[cowdery]

That's true about Old Forester's origins, although it's still unique in being made by the company that launched it 138 years ago, and the company is still controlled by the family of the founder. Nobody else can make that claim.

As for when they bought St. Mary's, it roughly corresponded to passage of the Bottled in Bond Act in 1894, but they bought that particular distillery because it was their principal supplier, so it was probably St. Mary's whiskey in the Old Forester bottles before 1894. I believe the Athertonville Distillery was another major supplier. They also owned what is now Woodford after Prohibition, until the 1960s, but they didn't make Old Forester there.

As for the integrity of the Old Forester formula during Prohibition, the sample I had recently was quite good, but I'm sure compromises were made during that terrible time.

Wild Turkey did something similar in the 1970s when they bought the current Wild Turkey Distillery. They started out buying from a number of different distilleries, then as the industry tightened it became just that one, then when they decided they needed all of that plant's output, they bought it.

[spun_cookie]

When does this hit the stores?