No more Pappy on Ebay???

[michaelturtle1]

While I agree that the bourbon selection is poor in PA and the distribution system less than ideal for the more everyday bourbons, I was able to get a few pappy 20's by ordering it through their website and picking it up at the store last fall. This process, IMHO, is much easier than going to 20 different shops to put your name on lists that may get one a bottle 3 months down the road. Though maybe I just got lucky last year.

I totally agree, i bought a bottle of 12 Yr and 2 bottles of the 20 yr pappy and had them shipped to my house.. no need to get on any lists that I know I would never see my product.. I had talked to a half dozen Delaware stores and each told me there allocation was 3-5 bottles of total product for which they had at least 50 names on a list.. so I figure after the store owner and a few friends get their share maybe one or 2 names get called.. which is why I can't see eliminating ebay sales making any difference to me...

[yerrbo]

Maybe I'm just super naïve, but I wonder if there isn’t a better way for BT/PVW to get their product into the hands of people who really want to consume it and away from those who just want to flip it. (I am, of course, assuming that that was the whole point of shutting down the Ebay flippers) And, if that is the case, perhaps there are more creative ways to approach it than just trying to shut down external marketplaces. For instance, perhaps attempting to approach this as music artists approach ticket sales in an effort to keep tickets out of the hands of scalpers, and developing a deal with retailers to offer bottles to known fans/drinkers in reasonable quantities ahead of the general market? Or maybe they could develop a program not dissimilar to the Ambassador program where fans/drinkers could be identified for their interaction with the brand via categories and then offered to them in those ways? I’m sure there are tons of holes you might be able to identify with the methodologies I’ve given as examples, but I can’t help but think that there has to be a better way of getting your product to the people who really want to consume it than simply sending it out to retailers without much notice.

[OscarV]

I don't get this at all.

If a person buys a Pappy on eBay because it's not available in his state then he is a snake.

If a person buys a Pappy at a retail "brick-n-mortar" outlet he his a saint.

It's like Democrat and Republican bullsh*t politics,....now if only the Libertarians and Green Party people would get into the Pappy boot-legg business then all would be well.

[Rockefeller]

This is not targeted at anyone in particular but what angers me most about some people on this forum is the entitlement factor - and that they feel everyone, in every state should have an equal opportunity to find and buy Pappy at what they deem a "fair" price especially if they are a long-time connoisseur who will open it for personal enjoyment only.

WHAT?!

No, you are not owed anything by the Van Winkles, or the state run liquor stores or the eBay flippers. They release it ... you have the chance to buy it ... go out and find a way to get it. NO ONE is stopping you. If some jerk flipper finds their way to four cases of PVW, then they got over on you and you were late. If you live in a state without it, then drive and find it. I don't complain everyday that lobster prices are too damn high in NY vs Maine or that it's easier to find a large apartment in TX. People who can't find/afford Pappy under whatever situation are not "victims" nor do they deserve sympathy. Think about what we're talking about here: limited edition luxury whiskey products. People are out there suffering from a range of unemployment to starvation to human trafficking, and yet we're debating this ridiculous first world problem.

Now excuse me, but I need to reorganize my storage room of bottles I will never open to make space for the upcoming Fall release.

[jburlowski]

...In my opinion, removing the option to sell on eBay drastically reduces the value of your bunker. If you say, bought a bottle of SAZ 18 for 70 bux, but the going rate on eBay was 300 you could technically sell for 210 and that's double-profit. Without eBay...it's only worth 70 bux or maybe 10 20 dollars higher to the desperate buyer...

If you're bunkering bourbon in hopes of making a profit, you are more likely than not going to be disappointed. You're better off buying it to drink.

[Trey Manthey]

This is not targeted at anyone in particular but what angers me most about some people on this forum is the entitlement factor - and that they feel everyone, in every state should have an equal opportunity to find and buy Pappy at what they deem a "fair" price especially if they are a long-time connoisseur who will open it for personal enjoyment only.

It's not a sense of entitlement that motivates me, but rather working with BT/VW/eBay to end the ILLEGAL practice of selling alcohol by non-licensed individuals. Is this some plea for fairness and communism? Hell no! Do I really feel sorry for people because they can't find a bottle of PVW. Of course not!

I'm totally selfishly motivated. I want to be able to find bottles with a reasonable amount of effort for a decent price. The eBay flippers are working against this, and breaking the law in the process. The Van Winkles seem to be on board with ending the practice as well, and it follows their company's motto. If I can move my agenda forward by supporting the quashing of an ILLEGAL grey market, why not?

If my neighbor constantly has loud parties that keep me up at night, you might argue that I am suppressing his right to free expression if I ask the authorities to intervene. However, if he moves next door to you, wouldn't you share my interest in making sure that he obeys local noise ordinances?

You may see it as suppressing free market capitalism. I see it as upholding the law of the land, despite my ulterior motives.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Trey Manthey

[Trey Manthey]

Maybe I'm just super naïve, but I wonder if there isn’t a better way for BT/PVW to get their product into the hands of people who really want to consume it and away from those who just want to flip it. (I am, of course, assuming that that was the whole point of shutting down the Ebay flippers) And, if that is the case, perhaps there are more creative ways to approach it than just trying to shut down external marketplaces. For instance, perhaps attempting to approach this as music artists approach ticket sales in an effort to keep tickets out of the hands of scalpers, and developing a deal with retailers to offer bottles to known fans/drinkers in reasonable quantities ahead of the general market? Or maybe they could develop a program not dissimilar to the Ambassador program where fans/drinkers could be identified for their interaction with the brand via categories and then offered to them in those ways? I’m sure there are tons of holes you might be able to identify with the methodologies I’ve given as examples, but I can’t help but think that there has to be a better way of getting your product to the people who really want to consume it than simply sending it out to retailers without much notice.

It's not a bad idea, but since you're dealing with alcohol, it raises all sorts of regulatory issues. Furhermore, I think BT/VW would have to take up in the retail business to make that work.

Honestly, I think the bubble will burst in a few years and whiskey won't be such a hot commodity. The real drinkers will still be here when the dust settles if our livers can stand the test of time. It's fun to b!tch and argue about it in the meantime.

[LostBottle]

It's not a sense of entitlement that motivates me, but rather working with BT/VW/eBay to end the ILLEGAL practice of selling alcohol by non-licensed individuals. Is this some plea for fairness and communism? Hell no! Do I really feel sorry for people because they can't find a bottle of PVW. Of course not!

I'm totally selfishly motivated. I want to be able to find bottles with a reasonable amount of effort for a decent price. The eBay flippers are working against this, and breaking the law in the process. The Van Winkles seem to be on board with ending the practice as well, and it follows their company's motto. If I can move my agenda forward by supporting the quashing of an ILLEGAL grey market, why not?

If my neighbor constantly has loud parties that keep me up at night, you might argue that I am suppressing his right to free expression if I ask the authorities to intervene. However, if he moves next door to you, wouldn't you share my interest in making sure that he obeys local noise ordinances?

You may see it as suppressing free market capitalism. I see it as upholding the law of the land, despite my ulterior motives.

Well, whether readers agree or disagree with your view, I think you may have just taken the award for the most honest post on the subject.

[Bourbon Boiler]

If you're bunkering bourbon in hopes of making a profit, you are more likely than not going to be disappointed. You're better off buying it to drink.

I don't bunker anything. In fact, I've never purchased a bottle of anything where I had more than half a bottle already in my possession - excepting items I've specifically bought for friends. That said, I could understand the argument of someone who bunkered something he figured he'd drink, but also looked to Ebay as a "safety valve" in case of financial hardship or change of taste. I can't imagine that this segment of the population is large, but I would hate to be in their shoes now.

[Special Reserve]

There are currently 6 auctions that are offering PVW products in eBay.

What gives? I don't care if bourbon is available on eBay or not.

Years ago when you could get bargains on eBay, I once won an auction for a bottle of WTRB from the past. My mode of bidding was bottom feeding only placed bids when combined with shipping was less than market price in MI.

Those days are long gone.

Will

[trumpstylz]

I honestly don't see how the ebay flippers have that much an effect on the availibility. This stuff is hard to get b/c the media has told the general public that it is very special and (even more important) very limited and very hard to get. I don't think the ebay flippers make up that high of a percentage of sales. I think its all the articles telling all the idiots who didn't care about the product prior to reading it to go out and get it if they can. The few people who sell it on ebay make it actually possible to work an extra few hours of overtime just enough to cover the extra cost to have this hard to find item delivered right to your door.

just my .02

[Rockefeller]

I honestly don't see how the ebay flippers have that much an effect on the availibility. This stuff is hard to get b/c the media has told the general public that it is very special and (even more important) very limited and very hard to get. I don't think the ebay flippers make up that high of a percentage of sales. I think its all the articles telling all the idiots who didn't care about the product prior to reading it to go out and get it if they can. The few people who sell it on ebay make it actually possible to work an extra few hours of overtime just enough to cover the extra cost to have this hard to find item delivered right to your door.

just my .02

Agreed, majority of the bottles probably goes to restaurants and bars. They then charge on a drink per basis even higher prices than the eBay markups. Can someone please report these rascals to the Van Winkle police? Sean Brock from Husk is the worst. He admits to hoarding it and resells the 20yr at $42/glass ($500+ per bottle).

The most egregious flippers are not on eBay. GET THE VAN WINKLE POLICE!!!

[Josh]

Except for the Old Rip 107 they're all overpriced and overrated anyway. F$%K 'em.

Edited September 12, 2012 by camduncan
swearing

[StraightNoChaser]

Except for the Old Rip 107 they're all overpriced and overrated anyway. Fuck 'em.

No love for the rye? Or are we just talking the bourbons

[Bmac]

No love for the rye? Or are we just talking the bourbons

Oh there's much love for the rye! Wish i could get another bottle!

[tommyboy38]

Here's another vote for the rye. Great stuff and I hope I can find a few come fall.

[Josh]

OK I do like the rye. A lot.

[wadewood]

Sean Brock from Husk is the worst.

Sean Brock and Julian Van Winkle are good friends, so he gets all he wants including a private barrel selection.

[unclebunk]

From the linked article in post #61. This amused me: "Head bartender Jamie MacBain suggests the taste alone is worth the sticker shock. “Pappy is a wheated bourbon,” he says. “Instead of the usual rye, they use corn, which means you don’t have that spicy harshness."

[Trey Manthey]

From the linked article in post #61. This amused me: "Head bartender Jamie MacBain suggests the taste alone is worth the sticker shock. “Pappy is a wheated bourbon,” he says. “Instead of the usual rye, they use corn, which means you don’t have that spicy harshness."

This would make a great Mad Lib for journalists writing about whiskey:

Pappy is a (adjective) (noun). Instead of the usual (noun), they use (noun), which means you don't have that (adjective) (noun).

[Halifax]

If I were a manufacturer and underestimated the damemd for my product I would want to put a stop to the secondary market. Why would I allow others to cash in on my product? Someone is going to make the money at the end of the day. The bourbon enthusiast will still be screwed. If you guys thing there will be Pappy sitting on the shelf at a reasonable price you are going to be disappointed. The market has been established. Van Winkle is a growth brand. The market will set the price. It is simple economics.

[T Comp]

If I were a manufacturer and underestimated the damemd for my product I would want to put a stop to the secondary market. Why would I allow others to cash in on my product? Someone is going to make the money at the end of the day. The bourbon enthusiast will still be screwed. If you guys thing there will be Pappy sitting on the shelf at a reasonable price you are going to be disappointed. The market has been established. Van Winkle is a growth brand. The market will set the price. It is simple economics.

[HighInTheMtns]

The market won't be the same with the exclusion of eBay; the market could well dictate a far lower price now. The mystique of the Van Winkle and Antique Collection brands, and hence the secondary-market prices, depends on it being essentially sold out shortly after release. I would argue that depends on enthusiasts, bars and restaurants who do their research, and flippers (who obviously do their research.) If flippers are removed from the equation, these brands will still sell out. They'll retain their mystique.

But I argue that the people who will pay the exorbitant eBay prices for these bottles are not going to do their research (in general - I don't want to paint every buyer this way), talk to liquor store managers, know the release dates and be on the lookout. And the people who will do those things are savvy enough to know that there's a price at which those bottles are no longer desirable. For me personally, that price is getting close. There are too many other good things for less money. The price will likely go up from where it is, but it will not go up to those levels. As soon as it's sitting on every shelf untouched by all those in the know because of too-high prices, the mystique evaporates. It's just another fancy bottle like so many $300 scotches.

Edited September 12, 2012 by HighInTheMtns

[Halifax]

You are making an assumption that flippers will quit hoarding PVW as a result of ebay's decision. The secondary market will still exist, and prices will most likely go higher as the distribution channel has now tightened further. The ONLY thing that will drive the price down is increased supply. I don't see that happening anytime soon.

[smokinjoe]

You are making an assumption that flippers will quit hoarding PVW as a result of ebay's decision. The secondary market will still exist, and prices will most likely go higher as the distribution channel has now tightened further. The ONLY thing that will drive the price down is increased supply. I don't see that happening anytime soon.