squire Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Lapping it up only proves they can give it away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WsmataU Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 How is buying bulk whisky replicating technique? And why an offbeat hybrid for ingredients when the corn used by distillers in the 1880s is still available?The older wood canard is a myth, older is just older and doesn't make a better barrel any more than it makes a better paddle or ax handle. Well, that is the technique that still affords SW juice even today...lol. Maybe I missed the ingredient you mentioned, but the thought process of using non-GMO is solid. But I completely disagree with you that using old wood is a myth (at least in the examples you've provided). Although I don't know of any scientific study about absorption rates for cooperage, it is pretty universally accepted that harvested hardwoods from 100 years ago provide significantly finer grain (read stronger). I'm sure the guys at Hillerich and Bradsby would agree. I know any high end furniture maker would. I'm willing to make a bet that barrel using old wood would have distinctly different characteristics than a modern one. The problem there is that with global warming, we can't grow trees as slowly as our forefathers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yeti Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 I read the first post and got excited about posting some kind of snarky response, but damned if you haven't all covered it like Flippers on Pappy Day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flahute Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Well, that is the technique that still affords SW juice even today...lol. Maybe I missed the ingredient you mentioned, but the thought process of using non-GMO is solid.But I completely disagree with you that using old wood is a myth (at least in the examples you've provided). Although I don't know of any scientific study about absorption rates for cooperage, it is pretty universally accepted that harvested hardwoods from 100 years ago provide significantly finer grain (read stronger). I'm sure the guys at Hillerich and Bradsby would agree. I know any high end furniture maker would. I'm willing to make a bet that barrel using old wood would have distinctly different characteristics than a modern one. The problem there is that with global warming, we can't grow trees as slowly as our forefathers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squire Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Ok, those guys mention heirloom corn but the varieties they claim to be using (obviously not the same as used in their sourced product which probably is GMO) are a hybrid of heirloom varieties. The corn types used by Bourbon distillers back in the 1870-80s are still available in non GMO form and if you are going to replicate old style whisky it makes sense to me to use what they used.My family has been growing hardwood timber for six generations now and during my career I represented both timber growers and sawmill owners so I have some idea of what makes for merchantable timber. Some 40-50 years ago there was a buyer for Kentucky barrel makers who would come through and pick out specific white oak trees from our forests for use in making whisky barrels. Who knows, at some point I may have even drank some whisky that had been aged in a barrel from a tree grown on our farms. My brother and I are the last two remaining of the sixth generation but our children will be the seventh because we plan to keep the land.What I've learned about white oak is the density of the bole (tree trunk) is determined by growing conditions, not age. A 75 year old white oak tree grown on our land in good, rich, well watered soil between 100 to 200 feet above sea level will be more porous than one grown on poor soil on a North facing slope at 1100-1200 feet above sea level such as the conditions found in the Ozarks. That doesn't mean ours are soft or anything (try cutting one down with an axe, if you're not careful the axe will bonce back) but it will not be as tight grained as one grown in harsher conditions because a tree that has to fight to grow will have narrower ring bands and subsequently tighter grain. That is true irrespective of the age of the tree.For quality whisky barrels I do attach more importance to how well the planks are allowed to dry out naturally in the open air before being shaped into staves. When we talk about whisky wood being better in times past I don't think it was due to the age of the trees, rather it was due to the fully seasoned wood that was available before the plants went to modern kiln drying techniques.Old growth trees do have one distinctive advantage though, they posses a much higher percentage of heart (hard) wood and a proportionately smaller amount of sap wood. As well as up a tree grows from the center out so as the years go by it amasses more of the hard wood that's useful to furniture makers and architects, both of whom I have represented.Years ago I represented a contractor that specialized in the readaptive use of old buildings. They were in fact the contractor that renovated our State Capitol (one of the artifacts I got was an inkwell from the bench of our original State Supreme Court) and they were the darlings of the architects and other folks that had a use for century old woodwork and beams. I asked why this wood was preferable and was told that after a century or so the wood was thoroughly seasoned in a way that could not be replicated by modern treatments. One custom wood craftsman I know swore it took a superior polish because all that drying out produced the tightest grain possible. So I maintain that was a result of many decades of exposure after it was sawn and not due to the age of the tree when cut.So is the center of a 150 year old tree dryer than the layers 9-12 inches away but still within the heart? I donno, but doubt it matters if the wood is properly seasoned before being made into whisky barrels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCJason1 Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Then why not sell every bottle in NYC? Going to the expense and trouble of sending it around the country seems counterproductive unless there are other motives.Remember whisky isn't their business, these are the guys who set up a still in the back of their chocolate factory. Their main thrust is the manufacture of chocolate and the importation of wines, liqueurs, rum and related products.Of course if the Bourbon is being used to get their other brands into the liquor stores that would make sense.From a consumer standpoint though $300 for 750 of whisky is an awful lot to pay for an underage, underproof, untried formula cooked up in the back of a chocolate store.Word... Heck I'd rather have both a bottle of pappy 23 and 15 for $300... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WsmataU Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 Very interesting squire. Thanks for sharing. I think we are saying similar things due to different causes. My point on the wood was similar to your example of the tree in the Ozarks. Trees in higher altitudes or colder climates have a tougher time growing....thereby producing a tighter grain, which (I would think) would greatly effect alcohol absorption/flavor. I hadn't considered the dryness, but I am familiar with the differences in techniques (air v kiln) and the effects on the end product. I guess WJ could use significantly more expensive heartwood, but I doubt they are going to go to those lengths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flahute Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 That is an impressive post squire - thanks for sharing your history. Super interesting.I'll admit that I forgot the nature of the original post so I should say that I'm not defending Widow Jane's claims. I should also say that my own experience has been with pines and firs and not so much oak. (Though I have wondered about oak as it relates to barrels.)What I do know, is that pine and fir from old growth forests used to manufacture double hung windows in very old buildings are still found in very good and stable condition at almost 100 years old. On the other hand, new windows made from fast growth plantation pine and treated to resist weather can be found rotting after as little as 10-15 years. (Other factors are at play admittedly).Also, the select structural southern pines and douglas firs have recently had their structural ratings reduced because the new woods just aren't as strong as the old stuff.None of this has anything to do with oak, but it did make me ask the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyOldKyDram Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 Any interest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danz Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 I don't think Widow Jane is particularly well-known or popular up here, but it does have at least some "presence". I work in NYC, and I was at a benefit a year or so ago, and they had one Rye and one Bourbon, both Widow Jane. It was serviceable, but I didn't run out and buy some after drinking it that night.As far as being able to sell whatever they have here in NYC, I'd be skeptical at those prices, but stranger things have happened. There is definitely a lot of funny money here, and with Astor Wines being located downtown with a lot of hipsters and finance guys, it's possible. Astor sells out of the premium stuff very quickly when it comes in. Heck, they sold out of their single barrel OWA at $40 a bottle quickly (I kept waiting for the price to go down thinking no-one would buy a $20 bourbon at $40--then it was gone).Well, anyway, I don't see this making much headway in Kentucky.I also like the marketing approach: Hey Kentucky, we're doing you a favor by offering you our awesome East River special sauce. Before reading this story, they were just another small mystery label to me. Last night I saw some of their bottles sitting on a bottom shelf gathering dust here in NYC. I didn't even look at the price, I just chuckled.Half my family is from Tennessee and lives there to this day. I am sure I am not alone in NY in finding this sort of sales pitch to the Southern "bumpkins" unamusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squire Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 MyOldKyDram said . . .Any interest? ha,ha,ha,ha . . . . . nope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theglobalguy Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 They clearly didn't blow the budget on packaging. Saw these in Louisville next to the normal Widow Jane, thought they were really expensive candles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squire Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 Widow Jane candles . . . you may have given them an idea for their next product launch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyOldKyDram Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 They can call it Widow's Flame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravensfire Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 They can call it Widow's Flame.At $99.95 msrp per candle, of course. Don't let the Widow flame out!-- Ravensfire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flahute Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Widow Jane candles . . . you may have given them an idea for their next product launch.They''s contract with Yankee Candle to make them, and you'll be able to smell them 30' before reaching the storefront. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WsmataU Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I actually bought a "bourbon" candle from Taste of Ky for my wife at Christmas.....It doesn't really smell much like bourbon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squire Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 It's the thought that counts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risenc Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Though, in all fairness, the Karakesevic family has been in distilling for, what, seven generations? They already knew their way around a still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squire Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Who? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanstaafl2 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Though, in all fairness, the Karakesevic family has been in distilling for, what, seven generations? They already knew their way around a still.But are these high priced whiskies distilled by them? I don't know as I had no interest in high priced 375's of dubious lineage (for a change... :cool:) so I haven't dug into it. If not does it really matter how much experience distilling they have? The original Widow Jane 7yo was sourced whiskey as I understand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theglobalguy Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Who? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Think he's confusing the Charbay folks with the Chocolate Liquer people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanstaafl2 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Who? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Umm, yeah. That too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanstaafl2 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Think he's confusing the Charbay folks with the Chocolate Liquer people?Could be. That is the only Karakesevic I can turn up connected to distilling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squire Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I think risenc might have made a misplaced assumption. The Charbay Distillery in California has been active for about 30 years and whether they had ancestors with some distilling knowledge (being of Scottish descent I can claim that) is irrelevant. What they have done is some limited runs (few hundred cases each) distilling local beer into whisky, hops and all. In addition, the small alembic still displayed on their website do not lend themselves to bulk manufacture of whisky for the trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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