whiskies that fail to list State of Distillation?

[Harry in WashDC]

. . . Templeton actually has an approved label for something called Templeton Rye Kerkhoff Recipe that is 90% cane spirit, 10% rye spirit. That's the 'real' Prohibition-era Templeton rye.

Rye-flavored rum. I can't wait.

[wadewood]

Tin Cup Whiskey & Jess Graber,

I posted to your Facebook page about your lack of compliance with our federal law. Your response was that "We can assure you that TINCUP is in compliance with all label regulations.†You also said that your whiskey is distilled in Indiana. Per 27 CFR 5.36 (d), you must say the actual State of Distillation on the label. Your reply might be that the TTB approved your label, but I would remind you that is up to you to submit a label that complies with our federal laws. Maybe you were not aware of this law; in that case let this email show that you are now.

Templeton Rye Whiskey recently was made aware of this law and they are now in process of changing their label to comply - http://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/2014/08/28/templeton-rye-change-labels-clarifies-much-made-iowa/14770045/

I would hope that you follow their lead and voluntary make this change.

Copy of federal code 27 CFR 5.36 (d) - (d) State of distillation. Except in the case of “light whiskyâ€, “blended light whiskyâ€, “blended whiskyâ€, “a blend of straight whiskiesâ€, or “spirit whiskyâ€, the State of distillation shall be shown on the label of any whisky produced in the United States if the whisky is not distilled in the State given in the address on the brand label. The appropriate TTB officer may, however, require the State of distillation to be shown on the label or he may permit such other labeling as may be necessary to negate any misleading or deceptive impression which might be created as to the actual State of distillation. In the case of “light whiskyâ€, as defined in § 5.22 ((3), the State of distillation shall not appear in any manner on any label, when the appropriate TTB officer finds such State is associated by consumers with an American type whisky, except as a part of a name and address as set forth in paragraph (a) of this section.

Sincerely,

Wade Woodard

Certified Spirits Specialist

[wadewood]

Of note, when you apply for a TTB label approval you sign this statement that "Under the penalties of perjury, I declare: that all the statements appearing on this application are true and correct to the best of my knowledge and belief; and, that the representations on the labels attached to this form, including supplemental documents, truly and correctly represent the content of the containers to which these labels will be applied. I also certify that I have read, understood and complied with the conditions and instructions which are attached to an original TTB F 5100.31. Certificate/Exemption of Label/Bottle Approval."

[cowdery]

Good strategy. A lot of the 5.36(d) violators are little companies with little to lose from a class action suit. But Templeton has deep pockets and so does Proximo (i.e., Tin Cup).

What's the biggest newspaper in Colorado?

[melon16]

Good strategy. A lot of the 5.36(d) violators are little companies with little to lose from a class action suit. But Templeton has deep pockets and so does Proximo (i.e., Tin Cup).

What's the biggest newspaper in Colorado?

The Denver Post. I would love to see this in the paper. They have a marijuana section, so there has to be a chance this would make it in.

[cowdery]

I just sent an email about it to Kristen Browning-Blas, the Post's Food Editor. A note from a local reader certainly wouldn't hurt. I mentioned Tin Cup and threw in Breckenridge for good measure.

[cowdery]

I guess I didn't send her an email, since the email address listed for her in the paper has been disabled.

[cowdery]

The prospective wrath of the United States Government, however toothless it may be in any given instance, still has the power to rattle cages. For almost ten years, Templeton Rye President Scott Bush has mocked critics of his not-made-in-Iowa rye whiskey, but when the biggest newspaper in Iowa got involved, asking questions about violations of federal labeling requirements, the company's owner stepped into the light and promised to sin no more.

So, who's next? How about Tin Cup? More here.

[IowaJeff]

You are correct that rye whiskey cannot have other whiskeys added to it. This was a weird statement. My guess is they are just blending multiple barrels of MGP but who knows.

I'm not sure what you mean by ingredients augmenting the taste but keep in mind that Templeton is not labeled "straight" so they could lawfully use a small amount of flavoring additives.

Thanks sku. I knew there was something about additives in the regs but couldn't find it.

[IowaJeff]

That wasn't in the version I saw. The comment about 'other whiskeys' just struck me as something somebody might say if they didn't know what they were talking about. They might very well be screwing the pooch in another way, too. It is labeled as 'Straight Rye Whiskey' and the requirements for that are pretty strict. It can be a mixture of straight ryes made as different distilleries and still be labeled straight rye, so long as they're all from the same state. The 95 percent rye recipe was the only rye MGP made until late last year and MGP is the only distillery in Indiana that could be the source. Anyway, all very complicated scenarios so it just sounds to me like somebody trying to retain some of that Kerkhoff recipe fantasy even as he repudiates it. I'm willing to let that one slide.

I imagine Underwood has been looking at the financials but otherwise not paying a lot of attention to how Templeton does business. A series of high profile stories in the state's largest and most respected newspaper made him take notice. He may only have learned about some of this stuff in the last week or so himself. Now he's doing damage control. Something tells me Scott Bush got taken to the woodshed.

My question for Underwood would be this. Some of the Templeton stories seem really great, but how can you expect us to believe any of them?

I'll be really interested to see if all this affects sales.

Here's my blog post on it.

That quote was in a sidebar to the story in the paper version. It's never good when an investor CEO has to step in to explain a product.

Edited September 3, 2014 by IowaJeff

[PaulO]

I heard a story on NPR radio the other day. It was about Templeton getting caught selling the standard recipe MGP whiskey as their own special recipe made in Iowa. After they got caught, they say they will begin listing the actual state of distillation on the label. Oh and by the way, they plan to start a distillery there in Iowa one day. I guess that makes it alright.

[smokinjoe]

The Templeton outing is a result over 8 years in the making. This thread below is quite interesting, but you can skip over the first 28 posts. The meat is in post #29 and others afterwards (#31, #37, etc.)! Congrats to Chuck for calling bull$&!+ back then, and for keeping the pressure on for 8 long years. Many times to silent ears and occasional disdain, even here on SB.

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?5360-New-rye-whiskeys&highlight=scott+bush

[Quantum]

While maybe not as legally egregious, I think the fake recipe thing bothers me more than the state of distillation issue. I started cooking back when I needed to stand on a chair to be able to flip an egg. I especially enjoyed baking bread, and I remember being amazed how a small tweak in the the ingredients or process could have a huge impact on the finished product. I worked my ass off to perfect my recipe and process, and I am proud of that. I still enjoy commercially made bread, or from from one of those counter top bread making machines, but don't tell me its handmade from your family recipe if its not.

[squire]

One is reminded of Mark Twain's comment about the difference being about the same as between lightning and the lightning bug.

[mark fleetwood]

I guess I didn't send her an email, since the email address listed for her in the paper has been disabled.

[cowdery]

While maybe not as legally egregious, I think the fake recipe thing bothers me more than the state of distillation issue. I started cooking back when I needed to stand on a chair to be able to flip an egg. I especially enjoyed baking bread, and I remember being amazed how a small tweak in the the ingredients or process could have a huge impact on the finished product. I worked my ass off to perfect my recipe and process, and I am proud of that. I still enjoy commercially made bread, or from from one of those counter top bread making machines, but don't tell me its handmade from your family recipe if its not.

[cowdery]

You are correct that rye whiskey cannot have other whiskeys added to it. This was a weird statement. My guess is they are just blending multiple barrels of MGP but who knows.

I'm not sure what you mean by ingredients augmenting the taste but keep in mind that Templeton is not labeled "straight" so they could lawfully use a small amount of flavoring additives.

[wadewood]

Dissatisfied with the prospect of actually working my last hour of work, I sent emails to two Denver tv stations' investigative reporters and a couple reporters/news desk at The Denver Post. (If I get in trouble with Proximo's legal team, I'm taking you all down with me.:grin:)

[smknjoe]

I wonder if some of these offenders truly believe their lies? Remember the Corsair (or one of those Micros) thread where one of the guys from the distillery chimed in to tell us all that mashbills could be the result of mixing different straight whiskies together to achieve the correct proportions? Misinformation runs rampant.

[callmeox]

There is no difference between 'rye whiskey' and 'straight rye whiskey' in terms of the addition of additives. Anything that can't be added to 'straight rye whiskey' can't be added to 'rye whiskey' either.

Not to play Prove Chuck Wrong, but the TTB BAM sez that you can add flavorings to Rye Whiskey but not Straight Rye.

http://www.ttb.gov/spirits/bam/chapter7.pdf

So no flavoring in the straight whiskey class types (bourbon, rye, corn, etc) or in the bourbon (not straight) class type.

[wadewood]

Not to play Prove Chuck Wrong, but the TTB BAM sez that you can add flavorings to Rye Whiskey but not Straight Rye.

http://www.ttb.gov/spirits/bam/chapter7.pdf

So no flavoring in the straight whiskey class types (bourbon, rye, corn, etc) or in the bourbon (not straight) class type.

I'm not sure and don't want to dig through the actual regs to find out, but the BAM manual does has mistakes - it's a guideline. The real regs and law are in 27 CFR.

[callmeox]

I'm not sure and don't want to dig through the actual regs to find out, but the BAM manual does has mistakes - it's a guideline. The real regs and law are in 27 CFR.

But, if it is the book that the TTB uses for approvals they aren't mistakes. It contains TTB interpretations of 27 CFR as it applies to the class types listed.

Perhaps editing it for the TTB could be your next project.

[squire]

I hope the liquid can speak for itself and the packaging doesn’t stand in the way of you enjoying what we believe is a great mountain whiskey.

I'm a valley whisky guy myself, you know, where the water is.

[sku]

There is no difference between 'rye whiskey' and 'straight rye whiskey' in terms of the addition of additives. Anything that can't be added to 'straight rye whiskey' can't be added to 'rye whiskey' either.

That's not how I read the regs.

5.23(a)(2) states: There may be added to any class or type of distilled spirits, without changing the class or type thereof, (i) such harmless coloring, flavoring, or blending materials as are an essential component part of the particular class or type of distilled spirits to which added, and (ii) harmless coloring, flavoring, or blending materials such as caramel, straight malt or straight rye malt whiskies, fruit juices, sugar, infusion of oak chips when approved by the Administrator, or wine, which are not an essential component part of the particular distilled spirits to which added, but which are customarily employed therein in accordance with established trade usage, if such coloring, flavoring, or blending materials do not total more than 21⁄2 percent by volume of the finished product.

(3) “Harmless coloring, flavoring, and blending materials” shall not include (i) any material which would render the product to which it is added an imitation, or (ii) any material, other than caramel, infusion of oak chips, and sugar, in the case of Cognac brandy; or (iii) any material whatsoever in the case of neutral spirits or straight whiskey, except that vodka may be treated with sugar in an amount not to exceed 2 grams per liter and a trace amount of citric acid.

So the regs make a specific exception for straight whiskey, meaning that other whiskey should be able to include harmless coloring, flavoring and blending materials. The BAM states that bourbon, straight or otherwise, cannot include any such additives which is not in the regs but appears to be the TTB's interpretation, but as Callmeox notes above, the BAM says additives can be used in rye, which appears to be consistent with the regs.

Edited September 4, 2014 by sku

[ohiobourbon]

the regs make a specific exception for straight whiskey, meaning that other whiskey should be able to include harmless coloring, flavoring and blending materials. The BAM states that bourbon, straight or otherwise, cannot include any such additives which is not in the regs but appears to be the TTB's interpretation, but as Callmeox notes above, the BAM says additives can be used in rye, which appears to be consistent with the regs.

That's my understanding too: no additives to bourbon; no additives to straight whiskey; other whiskeys can have additives.

Here is something pretty interesting. The way I read it, if the whiskey is over 2 years old and it does not have additives, the bottle "shall" be labeled as "straight." So, for whiskeys over 2 years old, if it contains additives like caramel coloring, it is not straight; if there are no additives, it is straight.

I read the "shall" in the CFR to mean "is required to," and that this is not an optional thing. If it conforms to the requirements to be a straight whiskey, the label must designate "straight".

Or to reverse this, if it is over 2 years old and does not say straight, then the whiskey must have additives (or do something else to not conform with the requirements of a straight whiskey).

Here is some of the text:

§5.22((3) The standards of identity. Whiskies conforming to the standards prescribed in paragraphs ((1)(i) and (ii) of this section, which have been stored in the type of oak containers prescribed, for a period of 2 years or more shall be further designated as “straight”; for example, “straight bourbon whisky”, “straight corn whisky”,