Deception at the Willett Distillery: An Integrity Problem

[House of Bourbon]

DISCLAIMER: I'm clearly out of my element here. You guys definitely know your stuff. Honest, I didn't go on the Willett Distillery with any prior knowledge of their history, nor am I trying to "bust their balls" for "self gratification". I believe in holding companies accountable when they misrepresent their products. But mostly, I'm interested in your expert opinions on what seems to be a pretty normal practice in this industry.

Hi All- Not new to bourbon, but new to this forum. Though you'd be interested in the following story/thread between Willett and me. Our exchange is longer than the maximum allowed characters, so I'll post my final reply in the comments. Interested in your feedback. Looks like I got the final word, but I'll update the thread if I ever hear back from them. And for the record, I don't have hard-lined opinions about where bourbon is distilled or by whom; if it's good, it's good. I'm all about integrity. And transparency. Here ya go. Start from the top. -Ken

_____

From: Kenny

Date: Sun, May 18, 2014 at 7:32 PM

To: willettdistillery@gmail.com

Dear Willett-

We had a great visit to your distillery today- enjoyed the tour and the tasting. Love your emphasis on small, craft, family-owned, whiskey making.

We ended up purchasing the Willett Family Estate Bottled Rye 4-Year. But we were surprised to read on the label that it had been distilled in Indiana and not at the Bardstown facility- the facility of which you’re rightly very proud.

Why wasn’t this information disclosed during the tasting or when I purchased the whiskey? We’re confused, and frankly, a bit upset. Not because it was distilled in Indiana (who cares?). But because we took your tour and we were mislead. Isn’t it fair for people to assume that when they tour a family-owned distillery who also sells their namesake products, that those products were distilled on the property they’re touring? And if not, aren’t they owed at least a disclosure? Especially when you take such care to emphasize the importance of location, technique, and the “craft” process to your product?

Can you explain this glaring omission on your tour?

Best,

Kenny

_____

From: Visitor Center <willettdistillery@gmail.com>

Date: Mon, May 19, 2014 at 9:36 AM

To: Kenny Good morning Kenny,

Usually unless asked about our short period of time where we did not distill on property it is usually not discussed as part of the tour. Our main focus is explaining the process in which we distill. The family (Martha and Even Kulveen) purchased the property from Martha's father in 1984. At which time they began renovations to the distillery. Bottling and aging has always been done on property. As far as the product being distilled at another location it was still our product-- it was a private label done by another facility. I hope this clears up any confusion you may have had or still do have. If you have any further questions please feel free to call or email us, I will be more than happy to answer any questions you may have.

Thanks,

Shawna

Willett Distillery Visitor's Center

_____

From: Kenny

Date: Mon, May 19, 2014 at 10:32 AM

To: Visitor Center <willettdistillery@gmail.com>

Hi Shawna-

Didn't Willett cease distillation on-site in the early '70s? And only recently resume distillation? That's about 40 years, no?

_____

From: Visitor Center <willettdistillery@gmail.com>

Date: Mon, May 19, 2014 at 11:45 AM

To: Kenny

We started distilling again on property in January 2012, so yes it was a few years. The product however, is still our product. Just because it was not done at this specific location on our equipment does not mean that it is not our product. It was a private label that was done by another distillery then brought to Willett's and aged in our warehouses and bottled in our bottling facility. There is not much information I can disclose since there were contracts in place. Any Rye Whiskey that will be released in the future will be from this facility.

Shawna

Edited May 21, 2014 by House of Bourbon

[House of Bourbon]

Here's my final, most recent, response to Shawna:

_____

From: Kenny

Date: Tue, May 20, 2014 at 10:16 AM

To: Visitor Center <willettdistillery@gmail.com>

Shawna-

You haven’t really addressed my concern. And I think there might be an integrity problem at Willett.

Not the whiskey; the integrity of Willett whiskey is well-established and well-regarded. We tried some Willett at the distillery last weekend after our tour (Sunday, May 18th)- had the Pot Still Reserve and the Family Estate Rye 4-year. Both were phenomenal. I have to imagine that everything else Willett attaches its name to is just as delicious.

A family member in California has been after the Willett Family Estate Rye 4-year and she knew we would be in KY last weekend. I hadn’t seen a bottle at any of the KY liquor stores and some folks had mentioned enjoying the tour over at Willett, so we thought we’d stop in on our way back to Ohio.

My military ID got both my fiancé and me a free tour and tasting. Great first impression. In fact, overall, the tour was very impressive. One of the better ones I’ve had. Because let’s face it, if you’ve seen one distillery tour, you’ve seen them all. But Willett’s emphasis on their small-scale, family-owned and operated, craft distillery really stood out.

I can’t remember our tour guide’s name, but she was informative and made certain to emphasize the following:

1. Kentucky water is crucial to bourbon (we know this- limestone and whatnot). Willett doesn’t use any city water whatsoever. All of the water used in Willett whiskey is from a naturally fed spring on the property. Impressive.

2. The unique design of your pot still and how crucial it is to the taste (and smoothness) of Willett whiskey.

3. Craft vs. corporate; our tour guide took great care in distancing Willett from the larger distilleries.

4. The age of the property and the origin of the distillery equipment and the family heritage.

The tour was great. The tasting was great. And you had the bottle we were looking for. So we purchased it and went on our way. Once we were in the car I couldn’t wait to take the bottle out and examine it.

A close look at the bottle, however, revealed that that bottle of whiskey had been distilled in Indiana and bottled in Kentucky.

Wait. What?

After all that talk about craft vs. corporate? All that talk about the pure spring water being used on Willett’s property? All that talk about quality vs. quantity? All that talk about your “one-of-a-kind†pot still? After all that, we find out that I purchased Willett whiskey under false pretenses? That not only was the whiskey we tasted and I purchased not distilled at Willett, but it wasn’t even distilled in the state of Kentucky? Rather it was distilled in Indiana at Midwest Grain Products Ingredients, formerly Lawrenceburg Distillers Indiana, which was formerly owned by Segaram’s? Can you think of anything more anti-craft than outsourcing your manufacturing to a company that manufactures over forty other whiskey brands? A company that used to be owned by Seagrams? And then NOT disclosing this information to your patrons?

That’s not craft. It’s crap.

I should have done my homework. According to some online research, (Internet, I know, grain of salt, etc.), Willett stopped distilling whiskey in the early 1970s and didn’t resume distillation until 2012. The distillery didn’t even open until 1937, which means Willett hasn’t distilled whiskey on site for over half of its existence. Since Willett prides itself on aging whiskey no less than 4 years (big deal, so do a lot of other whiskey makers), that means we won’t be getting any whiskey distilled on the Willett property until 2016. Right? And the main building on your property? The one your tour guide told us was renovated and updated in the 1980s (which struck me as odd- that building looks much newer than that)? Here are pictures of your property back in 2001. Not much of a building there at all. What’s the motivation for misleading people about the age of the buildings on your property?

For the record, I don’t generally put much stock in the term “craftâ€. I think it’s too often an overused buzzword. But you chose to emphasize it as a business philosophy and as a way to distance yourself from the bigger distilleries. You even managed to convince this skeptic that your “craft†mattered. What’s upsetting about this is not that you outsourced your distillation for decades and decades, for at least the last forty years, because I don’t care about that. I suspect the product from Indiana is just as good as anything you’ll produce at your Kentucky location. My issue is that you led us on this tour and wove this narrative about small, about craft, about family-owned, about your unique process that is rooted in that property and that family, specifically. As it turns out, we know absolutely nothing about the process that went into making the whiskey we drank and then purchased. Because you didn’t tell us, we have to assume that the process isn’t the same, otherwise why wouldn’t you disclose this information? Why pretend? Even if, as you say, you have some sort of non-disclosure agreement with the outsourced distillery, you still could have informed us that the whiskey we were drinking and then purchased wasn’t distilled on your property, but rather in Indiana. Did you ship your natural spring water to Indiana for use in your whiskey? I hope so, because our tour guide sure did make a big deal about how important the water on your property is to the taste of your whiskey. And were they using your "one-of-a-kind†pot still in Indiana?

We’re out-of-towners. You must know that people who spend the time and money to travel to Kentucky, arrange for a hotel, etc. are very interested in the process of whiskey-making. Do you really think so little of your customers that you think you can put on this song and dance about craft, care and process, then sell us a $50 bottle of whiskey and assume we’re NOT going to read the label?

It doesn’t bother me that the whiskey we purchased was distilled in Indiana. It really doesn’t. What bothers me is that you didn’t disclose that information. And you went to great lengths to give us the impression that what we were buying was made, start to finish, there on your beautiful property. You’re intentionally misleading people and you can’t pretend otherwise. That’s a bad business practice. And it means your customers can’t trust you. Also, by default, it means you don’t think very highly of your customers (your curt, side-stepping response to my inquiry proves as much). You lied by omission, which is something I might expect from the big, evil, “quantity not quality†distillers from which you so desperately tried to distance yourself, not the small, family-run, craft distilleries.

Not a good start for a distillery trying to re-establish itself after what appears to be a rather shaky history.

Have some integrity. You can embrace your past while still looking forward to the future.

Best,

Kenny

[sutton]

I can sense where this is going.

What I will say about the Willett's I have purchased (and enjoyed) - wherever they secure their distillate/whiskies, there does seem to be something unique in their ability to select and then age on premise - something unique to their "terroir". It is different enough for me to find value in purchasing this line. And yes, I'd like to know where it comes from, but I think their sourcing abilities and on-premise aging does provide value add, just like Smooth Ambler OS and High West, to name just two.

Disclosure issues aside, I do see value in this business model - it is similar to the negotiant model in France. If you know how to select and age (and for French negotiants, blend) you are providing a value-added service. They are currently making their own distillate, so I see a distinction here despite the complete clarity on source of the original product.

I am not going to pretend to understand why there seems to be a very consistent practice of obfuscating the source by NDPs - whether it is a non-disclosure requirement placed on NDP's by the seller, a way of perpetuating the myth, or both ... but I do see a difference between what the Willett/SA/HW do with their sourced whiskies and others, if all I am paying for is an educated palate. After all, isn't that what PVW is?

And Kenny, not to call you out or anything, but you clearly appear to know more about this subject than you are dislosing to Shawna in your "innocent" emails - "the poor mislead consumer" and all, you know what I mean?

Edited May 20, 2014 by sutton

[smknjoe]

I read the first post, not the second. Unfortunately, I don't think you will get much sympathy here because everyone here already knows that Willett is a Non Distiller Producer. If you went on tour ignorant of this fact then I can understand why you feel mislead when you purchased from their on-site gift shop.

[House of Bourbon]

Thanks, Mark. Exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for. And, honestly, I wasn't aware of this going in. Promise. We were only visiting on behalf of a friend. -Ken

[House of Bourbon]

Thanks, Mark. Exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for. And, honestly, I wasn't aware of this going in. Promise. We were only visiting on behalf of a friend. -Ken

I can sense where this is going.

What I will say about the Willett's I have purchased (and enjoyed) - wherever they secure their distillate/whiskies, there does seem to be something unique in their ability to select and then age on premise - something unique to their "terroir". It is different enough for me to find value in purchasing this line. And yes, I'd like to know where it comes from, but I think their sourcing abilities and on-premise aging does provide value add, just like Smooth Ambler OS and High West, to name just two.

Disclosure issues aside, I do see value in this business model - it is similar to the negotiant model in France. If you know how to select and age (and for French negotiants, blend) you are providing a value-added service. They are currently making their own distillate, so I see a distinction here despite the complete clarity on source of the original product.

I am not going to pretend to understand why there seems to be a very consistent practice of obfuscating the source by NDPs - whether it is a non-disclosure requirement placed on NDP's by the seller, a way of perpetuating the myth, or both ... but I do see a difference between what the Willett/SA/HW do with their sourced whiskies and others, if all I am paying for is an educated palate. After all, isn't that what PVW is?

And Kenny, not to call you out or anything, but you clearly appear to know more about this subject than you are dislosing to Shawna in your "innocent" emails - "the poor mislead consumer" and all, you know what I mean?

[House of Bourbon]

I was ignorant of that fact. I should have done my homework. But that doesn't excuse them. -Ken

I read the first post, not the second. Unfortunately, I don't think you will get much sympathy here because everyone here already knows that Willett is a Non Distiller Producer. If you went on tour ignorant of this fact then I can understand why you feel mislead when you purchased from their on-site gift shop.

[GaryT]

I can understand being irked if you don't know, you get this nice tour (which ends in the gift shop), and they don't explain that EVERY product you purchase there wasn't distilled at the distillery you just toured. I think from their perspective, it would be hard to explain the business side of it after a tour. "And now you can sample our products - which, by the way, weren't distilled here but were aged/bottled here . . . I can't tell you where they were distilled, but they were aged here!" Where a product is aged absolutely influences the finished product, and from their perspective - they produced the finished product. Did the distill what went into the barrel? No - but most distilleries didn't grow the corn that went into the mash, or make their own barrels, etc. Most products have components that are sub-contracted out. Granted - after seeing the stills running and being presented distilled spirits, they certainly don't go out of their way to correct any assumptions about the relationship - but I think they might just cause more confusion in trying to do so.

Although the biggest question . . . how was the rye?

[r60slash5]

Looks like your busting Willet's balls for self gratificatition, and I'm suppose to agree. Lame. IMHO

Ted

[House of Bourbon]

That is YHO, Ted. Fair enough. But yea- I do like to hold companies accountable when they misrepresent their products. If that's "busting their balls" then so be it.

Looks like your busting Willet's balls for self gratificatition, and I'm suppose to agree. Lame. IMHO

Ted

[sutton]

OK,Ken - excuse my skepticism - perhaps I am a bit cynical about posts like this.

Certainly NDP disclosure gets discussed quite bit here - but you shouldn't feel that you were "tricked" into purchasing a wolf in sheep's clothing. If you search this forum, you'll get more than you ever wanted to know - my guess is that Willett is proud of what they have accomplished and want to focus on what they are indeed making themselves, vs. discussing what they are sourcing.

Edited May 21, 2014 by sutton

[House of Bourbon]

Gary- the rye was delicious! -Ken

I can understand being irked if you don't know, you get this nice tour (which ends in the gift shop), and they don't explain that EVERY product you purchase there wasn't distilled at the distillery you just toured. I think from their perspective, it would be hard to explain the business side of it after a tour. "And now you can sample our products - which, by the way, weren't distilled here but were aged/bottled here . . . I can't tell you where they were distilled, but they were aged here!" Where a product is aged absolutely influences the finished product, and from their perspective - they produced the finished product. Did the distill what went into the barrel? No - but most distilleries didn't grow the corn that went into the mash, or make their own barrels, etc. Most products have components that are sub-contracted out. Granted - after seeing the stills running and being presented distilled spirits, they certainly don't go out of their way to correct any assumptions about the relationship - but I think they might just cause more confusion in trying to do so.

Although the biggest question . . . how was the rye?

[House of Bourbon]

Understand your skepticism. And yessir- I intend on spending much more time on this forum henceforth. Again, thanks for your meaningful feedback. -Ken

OK,Ken - excuse my skepticism - perhaps I am a bit cynical about posts like this.

Certainly NDP disclosure gets discussed quite bit here - but you shouldn't feel that you were "tricked" into purchasing a wolf in sheep's clothing. If you search this forum, you'll get more than you ever wanted to know - my guess is that Willett is proud of what they have accomplished and want to focus on what they are indeed making themselves, vs. discussing what they are sourcing.

[WhiskyRI]

Believe it or not Willett is one of the better "distilleries" with regards to disclosure. I haven't toured yet but every single Willet Family Estate Bourbon and Rye I've bought has been excellent. Every one. Some better than others of course but I was happy to have opened my wallet every time. They know how to pick good bourbon and rye, or at least their palates and mine match up pretty well. But remember at the end of the day it's just booze and you can buy it, or not.

[Restaurant man]

They also did disclose the fact that the rye was distilled in another state, on the back of the label. I think you were upset that there wasn't enough warnings. They are also trying to resolve that issue, it takes time to age. To paraphrase the words of Mr. Cowdery "it's bourbon, if you're not having fun, you're doing it wrong."

[Harry in WashDC]

Once upon a time (like circa 1973), I recall discussing the legal meaning of "false and misleading" advertising with a Federal Trade Commission attorney. He said "false and misleading" had to include actual, affirmative lies. His example: In the Madria Madria Sangria commercials (

) that were advertising the then-new product, a nice young lady referred to, "My husband and his uncle, who make the wine" for the sangria. Undisclosed was the fact that they were Ernest and Julio Gallo. "Gallo" also did not appear on the labels. Those facts were true. The ad was not false and misleading.

WRT Willett, I know they are a NDP. I like their whiskies. If they can blend and age "other people's" distillate this well, imagine what they will do with their own.

[EvergladeSlim]

I toured Willett a few weeks ago. I have had just about all of their products and count some of the Family Estate Bourbons as my all time favorites. I was well aware of thier company history going in, as well as their status as a NDP. Which is why I was dissapointed with the tour. Our tour guide very deliberatley led us to believe that they had been distilling there all along and that they actually made all of their products that are on the shelf today. I found myself rolling my eyes quite a bit during the tour. I thought everyone knew they were a NDP up until 2012 so I could not understand why we were being mislead. I hung back after the tasting to ask our guide about a few of the Family Estate Bourbons they had available in the gift shop. I made it clear I intended to spend a good bit of money while I was there. I then asked if they had any samples of the distillate that they had produced themselves over the past two years. She asked me what I was talking about. I said "you guys just started distilling again in Jan 2012 right? Is it possible to get a sample of that?" She looked at me like she was pissed at me for calling her on her bullshit. And that was not my intention. I just really wanted to try it and figured since I was going to spend a few hundred maybe It would be worth a shot to ask. She replied that only Drew gives those samples out. I completely understood but it never hurts to ask. I ended up buying two bottles of the 11 yr Family Estate before I left, and I went back the next morning before leaving town to grab one more because it was so damn good.

I associate the Willett family name with some fantastic whiskey, and that 11 yr they recently released in the gift shop is definitely a top 10 all time for me. I love thier stuff, so I just can't figure out why they intentionally mislead thier customers.

[amg]

Interesting. Maybe it depends on the tour guide you get; when we toured Willett back in April our guide was very up front about the fact that they had only been distilling again since 2012 and he even talked about the distillery's history of methanol production back in the 70s. It's too bad that they're being misleading on the tours. I think that happens at most of the distilleries unfortunately.

[BourbonJoe]

I have known the distillery and the Kulsveens for many years. Prior to distilling in 2012, they were rectifiers. They would purchase bulk whiskey from the distilleries, age it and bottle it. I understand the the agreements with the distilleries who sold them bulk whiskey did not want it disclosed as to the source. Drew has, over the years, been very tight lipped about his source whiskey. Non-disclosure agreements can be very damaging if one discloses what is not to be disclosed. Drew has bottled amazing whiskies from God knows where but a lot of them are great and command high prices. I just thought some of you should know how the rectifying game is played.

Joe

[EvergladeSlim]

I have known the distillery and the Kulsveens for many years. Prior to distilling in 2012, they were rectifiers. They would purchase bulk whiskey from the distilleries, age it and bottle it. I understand the the agreements with the distilleries who sold them bulk whiskey did not want it disclosed as to the source. Drew has, over the years, been very tight lipped about his source whiskey. Non-disclosure agreements can be very damaging if one discloses what is not to be disclosed. Drew has bottled amazing whiskies from God knows where but a lot of them are great and command high prices. I just thought some of you should know how the rectifying game is played.

Joe

There is no denying they put out fantastic stuff. I almost never pass up a Family Estate Bourbon when I find them in the wild. And to be fair, I toured 6 distilleries on my trip and all of them were misleading in some way or another. Willett was probably my favorite of them all, I just didn't see any reason for them to be misleading.

[P&MLiquorsEric]

I won't get too deep into this other than to say that the entire booze business is smoke and mirrors at best and outright lies and deception at worst.

Politics has more honest participants.

[hectic1]

I read the first post, not the second. Unfortunately, I don't think you will get much sympathy here because everyone here already knows that Willett is a Non Distiller Producer. If you went on tour ignorant of this fact then I can understand why you feel mislead when you purchased from their on-site gift shop.

Plus 1...who cares as long as the bourbon/whiskey in the bottle is good.

[Paddy]

I don't purchase NDP rye on a regular basis.

But when I do... :skep:

I prefer it be from only the finest treated Ohio River water available between Cincinnati and Louisville.

[jmj_203]

Interesting thread. Mostly for the general forum attitude towards NDP's but Willet gets a pass as well as SA and few others. Havent bought or seen willet but I get the point if you're aging it under your environmental conditions its your product. My only wtf moment is why willet gets praises heaped upon them while many other NDP's get slammed here. For the record I dont care where or who, I care what it costs me and how I evaluate the enjoyment and taste versus price. SA is good to me but not 10 dollars more per bottle good. Willet I've seen prices and no way I'm jumping on that. Just a humble opinion but Willet does seem to get the forum butt kissing here. I'll pass always. And grab a $25 bottle.

[Paddy]

Interesting thread. Mostly for the general forum attitude towards NDP's but Willet gets a pass as well as SA and few others. Havent bought or seen willet but I get the point if you're aging it under your environmental conditions its your product. My only wtf moment is why willet gets praises heaped upon them while many other NDP's get slammed here. For the record I dont care where or who, I care what it costs me and how I evaluate the enjoyment and taste versus price. SA is good to me but not 10 dollars more per bottle good. Willet I've seen prices and no way I'm jumping on that. Just a humble opinion but Willet does seem to get the forum butt kissing here. I'll pass always. And grab a $25 bottle.

I get what you say and am also on the record in that...for the money...Dickel Rye is the best bang for the buck Lawrenceburg rye on the market.

Having said that, Willett get the praise you see here based on a LONG term PROVEN track record of sourcing some of the best aged bourbon and rye in the world.

I'm not condoning the current situation (discussed at length above) that appears to be taking place on the distillery tours. But the bottom line is that Willett is the model that all newer NDP's hope to step into the shadow of.