Deception at the Willett Distillery: An Integrity Problem

[393foureyedfox]

My only wtf moment is why willet gets praises heaped upon them while many other NDP's get slammed here.

willett has a track record that every other NDP wishes for. Ive read VERY few posts of people complaining of a bottle of WFE. Selection seems to be the key here, as other NDPs seem to be willing to bottle anything, and try to pass it off at upper shelf prices. Im interested to see if it continues with their own distillate. I imagine there may be a period of fine tuning required, but they'll continue. Prices will likely continue to rise though.

[Ravensfire]

I think that reputation is also because Willett's will say that they didn't distill what you can buy now if you ask. Very, very few are up-front about it and some will actively spin a yarn when pressed about how their bourbon was produced ... when it's just sourced from MGP.

[HighInTheMtns]

Interesting thread. Mostly for the general forum attitude towards NDP's but Willet gets a pass as well as SA and few others. Havent bought or seen willet but I get the point if you're aging it under your environmental conditions its your product. My only wtf moment is why willet gets praises heaped upon them while many other NDP's get slammed here. For the record I dont care where or who, I care what it costs me and how I evaluate the enjoyment and taste versus price. SA is good to me but not 10 dollars more per bottle good. Willet I've seen prices and no way I'm jumping on that. Just a humble opinion but Willet does seem to get the forum butt kissing here. I'll pass always. And grab a $25 bottle.

KBD (Willett) doesn't get a pass at all. Plenty negative opinions about many of their products around here. It's just that the stuff that is labeled WFE is typically pretty good, along with being uncut and unfiltered, which is something that is somewhat hard to come by elsewhere.

[TunnelTiger]

Willet, High West, & a few others get a pass because they A) have great product and don't lie about what's in the bottle on the bottle.

Those that take a min wage/part time tour guides every word for gospel are the same people that believe every word a politician says during an election.

Jeez it's just a tour.

[House of Bourbon]

Well, sure. It is just a tour. But it's a tour being offered for the express purpose of selling products. Which means they shouldn't be misrepresenting the products you're tasting and/or buying.

To quote Mike Myers in Wayne's World: "I'm not a gulli-bull, or even a gulli-calf," but I do take issue when a representative of a company deliberately misrepresents their products. Right to my face. I should have done my homework before I went on the tour. And then called them on their b/s. -Ken

Willet, High West, & a few others get a pass because they A) have great product and don't lie about what's in the bottle on the bottle.

Those that take a min wage/part time tour guides every word for gospel are the same people that believe every word a politician says during an election.

Jeez it's just a tour.

[AaronWF]

Well, sure. It is just a tour. But it's a tour being offered for the express purpose of selling products. Which means they shouldn't be misrepresenting the products you're tasting and/or buying.

I think you are starting to get this, but your logic here is irrelevant. They are in it to make money, period. A "tour offered for the express purpose of selling products" is meant to do one thing: sell products. It does not mean that they "shouldn't be misrepresenting the products you're tasting and/or buying."

I'll admit, it's interesting to observe your fall from naïveté in this respect. I think a lot of us here are desensitized to this kind of bullshit. You have to be, to a certain degree, to survive in this hobby, because the bullshit is thick and it's pretty much everywhere.

To quote Mike Myers in Wayne's World: "I'm not a gulli-bull, or even a gulli-calf," but I do take issue when a representative of a company deliberately misrepresents their products. Right to my face. I should have done my homework before I went on the tour. And then called them on their b/s. -Ken

Now you know. Go into a liquor store where a 'distillery' rep is pouring a NDP's product and 95% of the time they will insist it was distilled on premise, and they will believe it because they don't know better. I haven't taken the Willet tour, but I would not be surprised if the tour guides are largely in the dark about what's going on in the business. They don't need to know, they just need to walk you through some buildings and into the gift shop.

Read this: http://recenteats.blogspot.com/2014/05/how-do-you-know-its-sourced-whiskey.html?m=1

[ThirstyinOhio]

I think that reputation is also because Willett's will say that they didn't distill what you can buy now if you ask. Very, very few are up-front about it and some will actively spin a yarn when pressed about how their bourbon was produced ... when it's just sourced from MGP.

That is not always the case, I too was on a tour, about a month ago, where they said everything in the gift shop was distilled there on site. I was well aware of the truth and even questioned the tour guide about it and she repeated her statement that all of the whiskey that they sold was made on site. I do feel people should be up front and honest with their customers when talking about their products. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy WFE a lot, and was deeply disappointed that they didn't have any WFE bourbon at the gift shop while I was there, even after the misinformation. They have a great product and I agree with the o.p. that they shouldn't purposely mislead people, but rather be more honest about the process that their current whiskey has gone through and take pride in it as such since it is a good product.

[PaulO]

Ken, We have went round and round here in the past discussing the non distiller producers in various threads. I doubt this will be the last time either. I believe it was in a Medley Brothers thread that Chuck gave about the best description of how it works. My understanding is the distillery that sells to a rectifier doesn't want their name used afterwards because they don't know exactly what will be done with it. Also, they could be selling something that doesn't fit their flavor profile. The NDP doesn't want to say where it came from because consumers may hesitate to pay a lot for something that is really just brand X at a higher proof or age. The funny thing about WFE Rye is; it's the one product they sell that we actually know where it came from. I have bought it, and would buy it again. I think the higher proof and barrel selection give it a slight edge over Bulleit and Dickel Rye. Then again the WFE is more expensive and harder to find. I have a much bigger problem with the Pot Still Bourbon (funny bottle). I think that is much more deceptive, not even from a pot still.

Has anyone here tried the original Willett that was made prior to 1970s shutdown? How about what they started making recently?

[squire]

During it's best days (say 1960s) Willett made ordinary stuff similar to that of a number of other small distillers that dotted the Kentucky landscape. It was mid shelf at best and priced accordingly. They stopped making Bourbon in the early 70s due to declining sales and went dormant until Mr. Klusveen came on the scene in the mid 80s. He started promoting the brands in Europe where he sold them for a premium emphasizing the family owned, small craft producer, etc., all the while disguising the fact he was repackaging whisky from Heaven Hill (the distilleries are close enough you could roll a barrel between them) under the deception the whisky was actually made by Willett. Their company was founded on deception and that critter hasn't changed it's spots as witnessed by the 'Pot Still' brand.

The interesting part is Heaven Hill makes no secret of it's bulk sales, in fact was founded on that business, and the story Willett spins that they are contractually bound to keep silent about their main supplier is pure bunk because HH doesn't require that of other customers.

Edited May 21, 2014 by squire

[House of Bourbon]

Thanks- best information yet. And thank you for not insulting my intelligence or giving the folks at Willett a pass. -Ken

During it's best days (say 1960s) Willett made ordinary stuff similar to that of a number of other small distillers that dotted the Kentucky landscape. It was mid shelf at best and priced accordingly. They stopped making Bourbon in the early 70s due to declining sales and went dormant until Mr. Klusveen came on the scene in the mid 80s. He started promoting the brands in Europe where he sold them for a premium emphasizing the family owned, small craft producer, etc., all the while disguising the fact he was repackaging whisky from Heaven Hill (the distilleries are close enough you could roll a barrel between them) under the deception the whisky was actually made by Willett. Their company was founded on deception and that critter hasn't changed it's spots as witnessed by the 'Pot Still' brand.

The interesting part is Heaven Hill makes no secret of it's bulk sales, in fact was founded on that business, and the story Willett spins that they are contractually bond to keep silent about their main supplier is pure bunk because HH doesn't require that of other customers.

Edited May 21, 2014 by House of Bourbon

[mosugoji64]

Distillery tours are the last place to go for information. On our last trip to HH, a guide who has been there for some time insisted that they use a different mashbill for Henry McKenna. Should he know better? He's a tour guide and I don't know how much interest he has beyond what he's paid to do. As such, I didn't argue with him.

Regarding Willett, I think most of the issues we've had with their bottles have been with the non-WFE bottles. The quality there has been all over the place. You won't find us giving them a pass on those. WFE bottles have a great track record and show what they're capable of producing. It's in those bottles that they've redeemed themselves for many here. HW also caught a lot of flack early on for some deceptive statements but changed course and earned some respect for it. I don't think any distiller "gets a pass" here.

[Ravensfire]

That is not always the case, I too was on a tour, about a month ago, where they said everything in the gift shop was distilled there on site. I was well aware of the truth and even questioned the tour guide about it and she repeated her statement that all of the whiskey that they sold was made on site. I do feel people should be up front and honest with their customers when talking about their products. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy WFE a lot, and was deeply disappointed that they didn't have any WFE bourbon at the gift shop while I was there, even after the misinformation. They have a great product and I agree with the o.p. that they shouldn't purposely mislead people, but rather be more honest about the process that their current whiskey has gone through and take pride in it as such since it is a good product.

That is quite disappointing. When I asked during the tour, they were upfront saying what they currently sell was distilled elsewhere as they hadn't been distilling even two years. The internet has been around for quite a while now, and people will google things. When you find out you've been misled, it leaves a bad impression.

[squire]

When you find out you've been misled, it leaves a bad impression.

[TunnelTiger]

Well then I was wrong in my statement for Willett getting a pass. I have yet to try or buy any and on Squire's history I won't either.

[smokinjoe]

Of course, there was a slug of time when we all were buying Heaven Hill whiskey that in no place did it state that it was actually produced at Brown-Forman...I'm sure it was probably being sold, unmarked, in their gift shop, too. Should we add them to the "Do not purchase list"?

[squire]

Only if they claim to have made it and marked it up three times.

[smokinjoe]

The bottle probably said they did, and if it was in the gift shop, it was certainly marked up that much.

[ThirstyinOhio]

That is quite disappointing. When I asked during the tour, they were upfront saying what they currently sell was distilled elsewhere as they hadn't been distilling even two years. The internet has been around for quite a while now, and people will google things. When you find out you've been misled, it leaves a bad impression.

I couldn't agree more. When you sell a product that has brand loyalty as part of the marketing, its hard to dismiss something like that.

[wadewood]

Well at least Willett follows the law and list the actual State of Distillation on their label. So many others fail to do this - search for my other topic on that. Of course the NDP in KY catch a break on most of their sourced product, KY is the state of distillation and where it is bottle so they don't have to give away the secret so easily (except when they source from MGP/LDI in IN).

Also, never trust a tour guide. I have a series of threads on "Things Tour Guides say" at xyz distillery for proof.

[mbroo5880i]

I suspect the whiskey industry is no different than other industries where the more the market booms, the more deceptive the practices become. I envision today's boom to be no different than the late 1880s where producers and rectifiers were springing up left and right. I can't speak specifically about Willett and what tour guide's say and whether misinformation is intentional or just a lack of understanding. However, I wonder if part of the "layman" perspective is that the product is "produced" at the distillery (i.e., aged and bottled) without an understanding that distillation is really production. Of course, the alternative is that they are following the "script." Either way, I tend not to blame the employee but the employer.

[Pudsky]

Exactly how I felt 25 years ago when I found out the Willett brands for which I had paid a premium were just repackaged goods and I could get exactly the same thing from Heaven Hill for 1/3 the price.

Willett lost my trade then and hasn't regained it since.

Well then I was wrong in my statement for Willett getting a pass. I have yet to try or buy any and on Squire's history I won't either.

You guys really need to try some of the recent Willett Family Estate. I promise it will change your mind.

[Old Dusty]

Been avoiding this thread because I like Willett. Both the distillery and the WFE product line. So with that full disclosure:

To the OP

1) you got Indiana's finest export-the MGP 95% rye decently aged and at near cask strength. You may have been mislead, but you didn't get stuck with a bottle of Old Overholt.

2) the party line there is true-everything in the gift shop WAS made there on site. If by made you mean aged(additionally) and bottled. Unless you planned to buy an entire barrel and roll it home, they made your retail bourbon on site.

3) if they really are saying word for word that they "distilled everything" (or anything) in the gift shop then I can't condone or defend that.

4) as Gary mentioned upthread, it's easy for us geeks to parse this out, but the average bourbon trail fannypacker would find their head spinning if a working distillery had to explain how the stuff in the big tanks that you just dipped your finger in wasn't in the gift shop and wouldn't be for several years and the stuff in the bottles you are buying is really good(trust us) but came from all over the place and they can't tell you where due to confidentiality clauses etc. etc. etc., they wouldn't sell a single bottle and people would be running for the tour bus.

So bottom line-I hope they aren't telling outright lies and the stuff they source-at least the WFE label- is top notch so enjoy!

[wadewood]

You guys really need to try some of the recent Willett Family Estate. I promise it will change your mind.

WFE are single barrels of bourbon or rye; some are great, some maybe not so much so - depends on who is picking them. To make a blanket statement about all WFE bottles is not possible. This is also true for any single barrel bourbon, although since Willett is a NDP, their barrels can vary much more widely.

[MyOldKyDram]

True, but it's also not always fair to say you can get the same product from the actual distiller at a cheaper price. Said product may have been designated for a filtered 86 proof bourbon. It's generally worth the premium to try it NCF and at CS. Although that may be slightly less true now w the uptick on WFE prices.

[Yeti]

Ol' Dust gets my gold star for responses. OP, sorry you felt mislead, but welcome to the rabbit hole. We're all a bit mad here.