Deception at the Willett Distillery: An Integrity Problem

[ChainWhip]

..because the bullshit is thick and it's pretty much everywhere.

I think I just found a prospect for my new signature!

Edited May 22, 2014 by ChainWhip

[brettckeen]

I won't get too deep into this other than to say that the entire booze business is smoke and mirrors at best and outright lies and deception at worst.

Politics has more honest participants.

[nd2005]

I'll admit, it's interesting to observe your fall from naïveté in this respect. I think a lot of us here are desensitized to this kind of bullshit.

Edited May 22, 2014 by nd2005

[squire]

You guys really need to try some of the recent Willett Family Estate. I promise it will change your mind.

[Restaurant man]

Ol' Dust gets my gold star for responses. OP, sorry you felt mislead, but welcome to the rabbit hole. We're all a bit mad here.

I especially enjoyed the reference to the "bourbon trail fannypacker"

[squire]

It's a ruck sack dammit, standard issue for serious dusty hunters.

Edited May 22, 2014 by squire

[StraightBoston]

It's funny - when I was reading the OP's post, I was kind of thinking to myself - this sounds like what would happen if one of my friends could ever figure this out. I have several friends who seem to think WFE = liquid gold. I've tried to explain to them the whole NDP thing, that the rye is the same stuff as in Bulleit, Templeton, etc. Doesn't seem to get through.

...

And now, their product is climbing exponentially in price. They seem happy to position themselves at the top of the premium price range. It used to be the appeal of these bottles was getting a well aged, barrel proof selection. Now these same bottles are selling at Pappy esque prices.

The Pappy reference is apt -- Julian is a NDP as well.

Wonder what the OP will think of The Bulleit Experience?

[BourbonAddict]

Well, I guess this is as good time as any for a first post....appreciate all of the good information here on SB....some real experts among us.

Take a look at the attached...this has all the answers to the test (in particular the Bottle of Van Winkle & Naming Names sections)....hope you find it helpful.

WhoMadeMyBourbon-WA-Fall-2012.pdf

Edited May 22, 2014 by BourbonAddict

[Quantum]

It's funny - when I was reading the OP's post, I was kind of thinking to myself - this sounds like what would happen if one of my friends could ever figure this out. I have several friends who seem to think WFE = liquid gold. I've tried to explain to them the whole NDP thing, that the rye is the same stuff as in Bulleit, Templeton, etc. Doesn't seem to get through.

I have friends who have taken the Willett tour, and they definitely came away with the impression that Willett had distilled the products they are selling. I could understand buying a bottle after the tour and then being surprised/upset that it was actually distilled by Indiana's finest producer of bulk foodstuffs. If I am buying a bottle from my local big box store, all I care about is whether is tastes good. I don't give a rip whether it was produced in eastern Europe on equipment originally intended for commercial pesticides. For a souvenir bottle, the bait and switch tactic is a little disheartening. Its like telling a little kid Santa Claus isn't real, but he shouldn't care as long because he is getting the same toy either way.

Usually unless asked about our short period of time where we did not distill on property it is usually not discussed as part of the tour. Our main focus is explaining the process in which we distill. The family (Martha and Even Kulveen) purchased the property from Martha's father in 1984.At which time they began renovations to the distillery.

No matter how cynical and jaded you are, this is still a load of :shithappens: .

That said, I am going to keep buying WFE rye.

[suntour]

Kind of related -

the bourbon exchange has decided Willett is the new Pappy. So if you like Willett, stock up accordingly.

[393foureyedfox]

Kind of related -

the bourbon exchange has decided Willett is the new Pappy. So if you like Willett, stock up accordingly.

apparently, all you have to do is make something hard to find, and it becomes the next 'new' pappy overnight.

.......sheeple:rolleyes:

[393foureyedfox]

on a side note, i would imagine that if some SB'ers got together and did a private selection of (whatever age they wanted) from HH, and had it bottled at barrel proof, it would be quite comparable to a WFE, since most people generally assume WFE comes from HH distillate.

I dont know the specifics........the HHSS that you guys did from HH......was it a barrel proofer?

[dcbt]

apparently, all you have to do is make something hard to find, and it becomes the next 'new' pappy overnight.

.......sheeple:rolleyes:

I think a lot of it is also people speculating on it and trying to will the price up for their "investments".

[393foureyedfox]

I think a lot of it is also people speculating on it and trying to will the price up for their "investments".

'investors' can sure ruin a hobby.

old cars, and bourbon/whiskey, were meant to be used and enjoyed....not traded around constantly and unused just for increasing profits. both are being ruined anymore

[ModernThirst]

Fred Minnick has a post on his site today about a group in Texas suing distilleries for not properly disclosing the source (at least the state) of their rye whiskeys. Interesting... it seems there may be some traction on forcing bottlers to be up front on their labels, at least.

[amg]

Fred Minnick has a post on his site today about a group in Texas suing distilleries for not properly disclosing the source (at least the state) of their rye whiskeys. Interesting... it seems there may be some traction on forcing bottlers to be up front on their labels, at least.

Not actually a lawsuit AFAIK:

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?22157-whiskies-that-fail-to-list-State-of-Distillation

[ModernThirst]

Not actually a lawsuit AFAIK:

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?22157-whiskies-that-fail-to-list-State-of-Distillation

Good point...they've actaully 'reported the distillers to the TTB for violation of federal law.'

[MyOldKyDram]

Wade behind this? Oh Wade?!

[sutton]

Its like telling a little kid Santa Claus isn't real ...

[wadewood]

Fred Minnick has a post on his site today about a group in Texas suing distilleries for not properly disclosing the source (at least the state) of their rye whiskeys. Interesting... it seems there may be some traction on forcing bottlers to be up front on their labels, at least.

[Restaurant man]

I hope if Wade ever eats in my restaurant he has a good time.

[MrAtomic]

Been avoiding this thread because I like Willett. Both the distillery and the WFE product line. So with that full disclosure:

2) the party line there is true-everything in the gift shop WAS made there on site. If by made you mean aged(additionally) and bottled. Unless you planned to buy an entire barrel and roll it home, they made your retail bourbon on site.

4) as Gary mentioned upthread, it's easy for us geeks to parse this out, but the average bourbon trail fannypacker would find their head spinning if a working distillery had to explain how the stuff in the big tanks that you just dipped your finger in wasn't in the gift shop and wouldn't be for several years and the stuff in the bottles you are buying is really good(trust us) but came from all over the place and they can't tell you where due to confidentiality clauses etc. etc. etc., they wouldn't sell a single bottle and people would be running for the tour bus.

Respectfully (and I apologize in advance if I'm missing a layer of sarcasm in this post), I can't imagine many people defining the process of "making whiskey" as the act of additional aging and bottling. By that definition, anyone who buys an "Age Your Own Whiskey" kit, tosses in a 750 of Wild Turkey and dumps the results into a leftover Smirnoff bottle has made whiskey. Personally, I would not presume to consider myself a whiskey maker after having done so. Making whiskey means distilling, period. Additional aging and bottling are done to to whiskey that already exists; they are done to whiskey that has already been made. There is no shame in being a skilled independent bottler -- I'm not sure why Willett isn't willing to own up to the title and accurately describe the bottles for sale in their gift shop.

And to suggest that people visiting the Willett distillery are somehow a bunch of mouth-breathers, unable to comprehend the idea that a product was made in location X and stored in location Y seems a little unkind for a few reasons. First, we were all one of those mouth-breathers before stumbling onto SB.com (at least, I was). Second, I've taught a number of introductory whiskey tastings that included Willett bottlings and I can assure you that even the fanny-packed among them was able to grasp the concept of an NDP. It's not terribly complicated. If someone is interested enough in whiskey to show up at a distillery, it's fair to assume they are interested enough to hear the relatively simple facts about where the whiskey available for purchase was actually made, too. Finally, I don't think that a presumption of ignorance entitles a company to lie to its consumers -- particularly those that have made the effort to visit its headquarters, although Willett is hardly alone in this.

Willett selects some wonderful barrels under its Family Estate label. Off the top of my head, the 25 year old bourbon and 24 year old rye they bottled for Pacific Edge back around 2009 (?) are all-time favorites, as are the pair of 8 year-old bourbons they bottled a few years ago for the Party Source. I hope I'm able to buy more of their bottles the future. To claim, though, that Willett is entitled to fib to its visitors because they are somehow too dense to understand the company's business model, or that aging whiskey equates to making whiskey is, to me, giving Willett just a bit too much leeway. Especially among a group of enthusiasts who seem to prize accuracy and honesty.

What's most perplexing to me about Willett is why they simply don't embrace their position as an independent bottler and upcoming distiller. How hard would it be to tell visitors, "For decades, we've made a specialization out of finding the absolute best barrels that each distillery has to offer, and we age and bottle them ourselves, to ensure they meet the standards of our Willett Family Estate label. When you buy a bottle of Willett Family Estate, you can be sure you're purchasing whiskey that's been approved and aged by our family, and that represents the pinnacle of American whiskey." Which is the lead-in to, "To ensure a permanent supply of superbly-crafted bourbon and rye, we've taken it upon ourselves to distill our own. Until it's ready, you can be sure that any whiskey in a Willett Family Estate bottle exemplifies the very best of American whiskey." Bada-bing, bada-boom.

And again, Old Dusty, I apologize if I missed any sarcasm in your post.

[Gillman]

Interesting discussion. People should be aware though that aging onsite, which clearly many of these brands undergo, fundamentally informs the character of the whiskey. The "distilled" part is not 100% of the character and may end up being a relatively small part because the local aging environment and cask selection will determine a lot of the character. If the Kulsveens are bringing in new make in tank trucks and barreling and aging it onsite, it is substantially an "estate" product. That said, I am for maximum disclosure.

Gary

[cowdery]

I'm glad that 2012 Malt Advocate article made an appearance. If my career stands for anything it is caveat emptor. You have to educate yourself. If you think producers are going to tell you the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, well ... they aren't. None of them. I'll leave it at that.

Anybody who has done the least little bit of research will know the Willett story. And in defense of them, it's impossible to know when you are showing around a group of strangers how much, or how little, they know or understand about whiskey and the whiskey business.

Edited May 22, 2014 by cowdery

[squire]

Chuck you don't need to know anything about your visitors to tell them the truth.