The types of "Flippers" or is there even a difference?

[beasled]

Urgh. Someone I follow on Twitter that I share tipoffs with is actively buying multiples of FRsmbLE 15 that have now been 'tucked away for trades'... That's one tip I feel bad for sharing...

[MIDirtyBastard]

I fully understand how this is not only illegal, but I also do not fully agree with it in principle, but ...it would be amusing that once a person 'wins' a bottle of any rarity at a raffle event, they must cut half the paper seal upon leaving the store

[$helby]

I have been fortunate enough to acquire several unicorns through the special order system in our state operated stores. Many of these have secondary market prices often 10 times or more than the state prices.   I would never consider selling  one at any price as I truly enjoy sharing them with my Bourbon buddies.   That being said, It would be ok with me if the store made me deface the foil in order to obtain limited bottles but only if I could do it at checkout.  Not sure I would buy a bottle previously defaced.   Just my opinion.    

[Golzee]

I am not a flipper, but, I also believe that a person can do what they want with anything they have as long as it isn't hurting anyone.  Flippers are not the sole reason shelves are empty.  Flippers, the boom, and excessive hoarding all players in that game.

[jaxn slim]

It pisses me off mostly because of the excessiveness of the gouging.  Selling a $60 bottle for $120?  100% profit.  I'm envious, but that's not crazy.  Selling a $170 bottle for $2000?  That's insane!  Enjoying windfall profits just for being in the right place at the right time while the rest of us are slogging it out for the scraps because it's something we actually enjoy as it was meant to be is pretty irritating.

Edited December 24, 2015 by jaxn slim

[b1gcountry]

Is the problem the buyers, or is the problem that there are folks out there willing to pay these crazy amounts?

[GizmoStudent]

3 hours ago, b1gcountry said:

Is the problem the buyers, or is the problem that there are folks out there willing to pay these crazy amounts?

You hit the nail on the head b1gcountry -
So? which one of the two people written about in the
paragraph below is everyone here upset at -

A person who makes $45,000.00 a year that buy’s a bottle of LE hootch for
$140.00 and then turns around and sell’s it for $1,000.00 to someone who makes
$200,000.00+ a year who also just happens to love bourbon and has no problem
with paying $1,000.00 for said bottle because he cannot get it where he lives and
is thankful for the secondary market?

[starhopper]

I guess I've recently decided "It is what it is". There's nothing I can do about it - so why worry and fuss and fume about it?. Life is too short to not enjoy the things I can with what time I have. I mean, for God's sake, there are countries in this world where it illegal to possess (let alone drink) anything alcoholic. I am going to enjoy what I have and no longer worry about what I can't have.  That doesn't mean I will give up "the hunt" for those elusive unicorns - after all, that's part of the fun of it isn't it?

Merry Christmas you all!

Edited December 24, 2015 by starhopper

[DonutsNBourbon]

4 hours ago, starhopper said:

I guess I've recently decided "It is what it is". There's nothing I can do about it - so why worry and fuss and fume about it?. Life is too short to not enjoy the things I can with what time I have. I mean, for God's sake, there are countries in this world where it illegal to possess (let alone drink) anything alcoholic. I am going to enjoy what I have and no longer worry about what I can't have.  That doesn't mean I will give up "the hunt" for those elusive unicorns - after all, that's part of the fun of it isn't it?

Merry Christmas you all!

exactly my sentiments on this subject.  all I can do is not add fuel to the fire by buying or selling on the secondary market.

[b1gcountry]

I have better things to worry about and spend my time on than chasing rare luxury items. I figure the more people interested in bourbon, the more I will have to choose from in 12 years

[Hungry hobbit]

25 minutes ago, DonutsNBourbon said:

exactly my sentiments on this subject.  all I can do is not add fuel to the fire by buying or selling on the secondary market.

But where I live it isn't the secondary or the black market that's marking up the prices but the retailers themselves.  I just got a call from such retailer offering me a bottle of Pappy 15 for $750.  The going price for ORVW 10 is $400 and Lot B is $600. I didn't bother asking for prices for the rest of the line up.  

[DonutsNBourbon]

54 minutes ago, Hungry hobbit said:

But where I live it isn't the secondary or the black market that's marking up the prices but the retailers themselves.  I just got a call from such retailer offering me a bottle of Pappy 15 for $750.  The going price for ORVW 10 is $400 and Lot B is $600. I didn't bother asking for prices for the rest of the line up.  

that's unfortunate, I wouldn't shop at stores like that and I haven't.  Luckily for me, around my area there are plenty of places to shop, but obviously, the pappy's and btac are hard to come by regardless, but if you can get ahold of them, they are generally at  or near MSRP.

[starhopper]

1 hour ago, Hungry hobbit said:

But where I live it isn't the secondary or the black market that's marking up the prices but the retailers themselves.  I just got a call from such retailer offering me a bottle of Pappy 15 for $750.  The going price for ORVW 10 is $400 and Lot B is $600. I didn't bother asking for prices for the rest of the line up.  

Yep - there's a store in town where they have ORVW and VWSR12 on display.  Asking $500 for the ORVW, and $1500 for the VWSR12! - TEN TIMES RETAIL.   I told the owner (an Indian guy named "Ben") that not only would I not be giving him my business in the future, but that I was also going to inform Buffalo Trace Distillery of his price gouging (which I did by email to their CEO - to which he acknowledged receipt). That's all one can do - then just move on and enjoy what you have.

Edited December 24, 2015 by starhopper

[Bourserker]

You know, if I had read this thread a year or two ago I would have been all in on bashing the flippers like a lot of others have in this thread.  My opinions have changed over time, and my thought on this whole thing is that it's just simple economics.  I'm not a financial guy, but my basic understanding of supply and demand is that if there is a low supply there is a greater demand.  The greater demand leads to higher prices.  That's pretty much it.  

If I were to get all emotional about it I agree that not being able to obtain some of the unicorn bottles sucks, but I got over that about a year and a half ago.  There's too much good stuff available at reasonable prices to waste my time worrying about it.  

So I'm not a supporter of the flippers, but it is what it is.  When people stop paying the exorbitant prices, then the flippers will disappear.

[SebastianLloyd]

I'll be honest, when I was very new to purchasing and drinking bourbon (like a month in) the idea of flipping seemed wonderful to me, I get to buy a bottle of whatever for 200-300$ and get enough extra money to support my future purchases. After becoming more involved in the whiskey enthusiast community I've become more aware and empathetic towards this mentality. The idea of basically stealing away somebody's experience is upsetting, especially after I experienced an overnight stay at a premium release lineup in the pouring rain.

[SebastianLloyd]

On 12/24/2015, 12:47:57, GizmoStudent said:

A person who makes $45,000.00 a year that buy’s a bottle of LE hootch for
$140.00 and then turns around and sell’s it for $1,000.00 to someone who makes
$200,000.00+ a year who also just happens to love bourbon and has no problem
with paying $1,000.00 for said bottle because he cannot get it where he lives and
is thankful for the secondary market?
 

That's when you drive down to wherever said bottle is being released and wait in line like many others have. I've met people that have driven 5 hours to wait in line.  

[Madhatter]

What escapes me is why anyone, who finds a good buy on the shelf, would buy more than he was actually going to consume.  If there are extra bottles of that good buy on the shelf, leave them for the next buyer.  You just made the next buyer happy, and he doesn't have to search and pay on the secondary market.  Win - win.  You're happy you got something good and affordable to drink and the next buyer is happy.

Looking at the situation another way:  The retailer did you a favor by not marking up the cost so that it is not a good buy or you couldn't afford it.  Why would you buy it to resell it at a marked up price so that someone like you might not be able to afford it?

 

 (I know.  I admit it.  I am a Pollyanna).

[flahute]

I don't know about you, but I plan on consuming everything I buy.

[starhopper]

3 hours ago, Madhatter said:

What escapes me is why anyone, who finds a good buy on the shelf, would buy more than he was actually going to consume.  If there are extra bottles of that good buy on the shelf, leave them for the next buyer.  You just made the next buyer happy, and he doesn't have to search and pay on the secondary market.  Win - win.  You're happy you got something good and affordable to drink and the next buyer is happy.

Looking at the situation another way:  The retailer did you a favor by not marking up the cost so that it is not a good buy or you couldn't afford it.  Why would you buy it to resell it at a marked up price so that someone like you might not be able to afford it?

 

 (I know.  I admit it.  I am a Pollyanna).

I can give you an example.  Last month, a local store had Elmer T Lee on sale for $29.95 - I bought SIX of them (I like ETL!).  I also like ECBP, but I have NEVER EVER seen ECBP here in middle GA, so I traded four ETLs for two ECBPs.  I don't consider it flipping - I consider it a bartering system that allows me to add to my Bourbon collection without having to travel across the country to find the bottles I desire.  I have absolutely no reservations about doing this.

[ebo]

On 12/24/2015, 11:15:05, Hungry hobbit said:

But where I live it isn't the secondary or the black market that's marking up the prices but the retailers themselves.  I just got a call from such retailer offering me a bottle of Pappy 15 for $750.  The going price for ORVW 10 is $400 and Lot B is $600. I didn't bother asking for prices for the rest of the line up.  

Nor would I. It's good, there is no question about it. But.... it aint  THAT good.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[The Black Tot]

I'm just grateful that the limiteds out there are getting easier and easier to ignore.

Might not take the pressure out of the market, but it takes ME out of the pressure of the market.

Nothing stays on top forever - I can wait a few years for the return of sanity.

[Srdshooting]

I think there is a point where I don't mind it too much and that really depends on the price.   The BTAC collection and pappy especially seem to be the worst by far and I think it's mainly due to the prices they are at.  With the high demand and the low quantity and the prices as low as they are it happens and the markup is 8-10 fold.  Someone picking up an ETL for 40-45 plus tax and selling it for 55-60 isn't that bad to me if that's what someone wants and don't wanna try and find it.  With what the craze is the pappy line and BTAC really could use a mark increase which may curb it some. We had a lotto here where you waited in line and got a ticket for pappy. N as long as you got a ticket you got something.   They then drew for what bottle you got.   Advantage was it out the flipper in a bad since as he hand his wife can't camp out and snag 2 of the 23s and dump them in the lot for a 1300-1400 buck profit a piece. They could be first in line and get an old rip.  Or show up last and get a 23.  I really only was wanting a 15-20 year bottle here as I like them better than the 23 as a drinker.  I had no real interest in the others as they are decent but not great.  In all honestly if I got an old rip or lot B drawn it was going for trade fodder to something I would enjoy more.  I ended up getting drawn for a 23 which I really didn't want but took it to get what I did want.  Yap some may not like it but I turned it into a pair of 15s before I left the lot.   Even based on retail it was a pretty fair trade and everyone was happy.  

[garbanzobean]

I used to really feel strongly about flipping, but have long since ceased to feel that way.  I guess I might get mad if someone started buying up all the $15-$30 bourbons I like and charging $300 for them, but good luck getting that for most of what I enjoy.  I know I should care, but I'd rather have fun with my bourbon than be stressed out about all the various injustices revolving around it.  I've been lucky enough to try most of what I've wanted to try though, so it is unfair to expect that attitude from people who don't have access to stores OR bars where they can try the rare stuff.

 

At this point, the only thing that bothers me about flipping is that it is usually illegal, meaning people who do it have to be comfortable breaking the law.  While there is always a risk in legal sales that you are getting a fake, there is more likely to be recourse if that happens.  It would be nice if there were a good legal option for private sales, as auction commissions (not to mention taxes, but that's a different issue) typically destroy any real chances of making a profit on all but the most valuable of items.

[Richnimrod]

16 minutes ago, garbanzobean said:

I used to really feel strongly about flipping, but have long since ceased to feel that way.  I guess I might get mad if someone started buying up all the $15-$30 bourbons I like and charging $300 for them, but good luck getting that for most of what I enjoy.  I know I should care, but I'd rather have fun with my bourbon than be stressed out about all the various injustices revolving around it.  I've been lucky enough to try most of what I've wanted to try though, so it is unfair to expect that attitude from people who don't have access to stores OR bars where they can try the rare stuff.

 

At this point, the only thing that bothers me about flipping is that it is usually illegal, meaning people who do it have to be comfortable breaking the law.  While there is always a risk in legal sales that you are getting a fake, there is more likely to be recourse if that happens.  It would be nice if there were a good legal option for private sales, as auction commissions (not to mention taxes, but that's a different issue) typically destroy any real chances of making a profit on all but the most valuable of items.

I'm with ya', G'bean.    I won't buy from a private person, although I have done the occasional trade.    "Secondary" markets are all illegal as far as I know, and I don't care to participate.   If I'm lucky enough to get a 'Unicorn' over a retail counter, that I want, or that I know a friend desires, I'll pay retail (with any reasonable mark-up) and be happy for the opportunity.     If I don't get such a chance (most of the time this is my experience), I'm OK with the available options on retail shelves where I live or travel.    After all, there is an abundance of very good Bourbon on shelves (even from the bottom on up) all over the USA.

[IowaJeff]

I've gone through the five stages of grief on flippers and the current bourbon market.  First I thought it wouldn't last, especially after eBay shut it down. Then I was mad - I used to be able to waltz into a liquor store and get the entire BTAC and VW line!  These flippers are ruining my hobby just to make a few bucks!  Then bargaining - can't blame people for capitalizing on a market inefficiency. On to depression - I drank all of my LE's and now have 2-3 that I'm reluctant to open because I know I'll never see it again. 

 

I've come to acceptance.  There is still a wide range of great bourbon available to me - WT101, WTRB, BT, ER, EWSB, MMCS, Knob Creek, Bookers, etc.  I can count myself among the lucky who have tried most of the highly sought after bourbons before the boom and having done so, I know they are not worth the secondary market prices to me.  My glass if full of a bourbon I enjoy almost every night - I'm not missing out on anything.