The types of "Flippers" or is there even a difference?

[dcbt]

7 minutes ago, PaulO said:

Neither are people under 21 years old . 

That was my thought, too.  Ironic if the customer's clients were Bill's friends or classmates.

[Niner Outlaw]

The flipping issue showed up again my neck of the woods. I've got a good couple of contacts at a LS in town—I buy a lot there and the owner and GM see my face a lot, just shooting the breeze. My contacts told me that they get 2-4 bottles of PVW per year, but if I wanted any, I'd have to talk with the owner and/or GM. So, I asked the GM if I could get a shot at one this year or next year, the GM looks me dead in the face and says "that depends on what you're willing to pay."…uh, what? A retail LS is NOT an auction. After feeling him out a little, it became clear that the owner and GM were keeping the bottles and flipping them at 4x-10x retail price. ...Sounds like a good way to lose one's liquor license if you ask me…yes, I'm actually thinking about reporting these leeches.

 

For me, whether flipping is good or bad is pretty simple.

1. If you resell/trade a bottle at a profit = Bad.

2. If you resell/trade a bottle at your cost or MSRP = Not Bad.

3. If you buy from the secondary market = Bad.

 

As flahute said, an enthusiast will eventually quit buying b/c his bunker is full enough of a certain product--I've quit buying EC12(10), WL12(5) and Blanton's(9) b/c I've got enough—but the flipper will keep buying them up for resale/trade at a profit. My area is so loaded with Stagg Jr., I don't buy any even when I'm out b/c I know I can easily find some. The flipper would steadily clear the shelves b/c he knows he can sell/trade at grossly inflated values to areas that don't receive any StaggJr.

 

Sure, the demand is FAR above the available supply and that tends to cause some bottles to be scarce and prices to go up. However, flippers are artificially raising bourbon prices well over and above what the market supply/demand would dictate. That's why flipping is bad for the industry and why even buying from the secondary market is bad for the industry.  When production finally increases, the secondary market will shrink, and when most consumers finally refuse to pay the ridiculous markup, the secondary market will die.

[TheVilleWRX]

Got a good laugh out of this. Just seen someone attempting to flip a bottle of Old Pogue for $400...I know it has been missing from shelves for awhile but people realize you can go to the distillery and buy this at retail all day long, right?

[flintlock]

I sold off all my Pappy a few years ago.  I had enjoyed the SW Pappy and didn't care for the new BT stuff.  I thought it was overrated and over priced and at that time I had about 50 bottles from various amazing barrel picks not to mention dusties and general bunker whiskey, so it went out the door at a big profit.  I don't feel the least bit bad about doing it - someone else wanted it and couldn't get it and I had it and didn't need it.  What I don't like, and have never done, is purposely buy up local stocks - denying folks their chance at a bottle - strictly for the purpose of resale.  I think that's just rotten behavior.

[t-ball]

My first post in this forum.  Actually the first day I have ever been on Straight Bourbon !  Saw this thread and had to comment.  Long time Scotty Cameron putter collector.  The thing that has scorned  that hobby for me  is/was FLIPPERS !!!  Never imagined the bourbon hobby had FLIPPERS also !!  Just have a bad taste for flippers.  Can't stand to see someone grab everything and deprive fellow enthusiasts from having any without paying a premium price for it.  Especially when they are participating on a group forum !  Could ramble all night about flippers.  But won't.  Glad to be here, been reading for an hour already. 

 

t-ball

[Golferpimp1]

My first post in this forum.  Actually the first day I have ever been on Straight Bourbon !  Saw this thread and had to comment.  Long time Scotty Cameron putter collector.  The thing that has scorned  that hobby for me  is/was FLIPPERS !!!  Never imagined the bourbon hobby had FLIPPERS also !!  Just have a bad taste for flippers.  Can't stand to see someone grab everything and deprive fellow enthusiasts from having any without paying a premium price for it.  Especially when they are participating on a group forum !  Could ramble all night about flippers.  But won't.  Glad to be here, been reading for an hour already. 

 

t-ball

Ha...had been collecting Cameron's since the late 90s. I have two tour Cameron's left....my gamer, and one I ordered with my initials. Same deal turned me off, flippers and people who just ruined it for the rest of us. Also, the time commitment on having a drink or two a few nights a week is far less than playing a couple full rounds of golf a week. Welcome to the forum.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

[Richnimrod]

10 hours ago, t-ball said:

My first post in this forum.  Actually the first day I have ever been on Straight Bourbon !  Saw this thread and had to comment.  Long time Scotty Cameron putter collector.  The thing that has scorned  that hobby for me  is/was FLIPPERS !!!  Never imagined the bourbon hobby had FLIPPERS also !!  Just have a bad taste for flippers.  Can't stand to see someone grab everything and deprive fellow enthusiasts from having any without paying a premium price for it.  Especially when they are participating on a group forum !  Could ramble all night about flippers.  But won't.  Glad to be here, been reading for an hour already. 

 

t-ball

Welcom to 'the board', t-ball.    Feel free to introduce yourself in the New to SB threads.    Glad to hear you're of a like mind with so many here.    Bourbon really is best  FOR DRINKING, not for investing!

[Mark S.]

I will do my best to be civil in response to this topic.  I cannot stand flippers.  I have no tolerance for them and NONE of my bourbon enthusiast friends do either.  As an older man (70), I well remember the days when I could walk into nearly any fair-sized retail store and find all the premium bourbon I wanted on the shelves.  Those days are gone.  Where I live now, nearly all premium bourbon is allocated.  Retail stores handle distribution via lotteries, store lists or in-store drawings-----why?  Because secondary market resale profit temptations has prompted many to hoard for the sole purpose of greed.  I know of some who do not even drink at all----not at all----but still buy and hoard for profit in resales alone.  I blame them BUT also blame those of us who buy from them at outlandish prices.  If that stopped, they might stop as well but as long as some are willing to spend stupid amounts of money on bourbon, this problem of flipping will not only continue but worsen.  Pick a good retail store and befriend the owner.  Buy all your products there, to include chips and anything else that goes with your bourbon.  Get on his list and be patient.  The premium bourbon will come and at a sane price but DO NOT buy from flippers.  Do without but don't be a part of the problem.  Cheers to you all

[Richnimrod]

53 minutes ago, Mark S. said:

I will do my best to be civil in response to this topic.  I cannot stand flippers.  I have no tolerance for them and NONE of my bourbon enthusiast friends do either.  As an older man (70), I well remember the days when I could walk into nearly any fair-sized retail store and find all the premium bourbon I wanted on the shelves.  Those days are gone.  Where I live now, nearly all premium bourbon is allocated.  Retail stores handle distribution via lotteries, store lists or in-store drawings-----why?  Because secondary market resale profit temptations has prompted many to hoard for the sole purpose of greed.  I know of some who do not even drink at all----not at all----but still buy and hoard for profit in resales alone.  I blame them BUT also blame those of us who buy from them at outlandish prices.  If that stopped, they might stop as well but as long as some are willing to spend stupid amounts of money on bourbon, this problem of flipping will not only continue but worsen.  Pick a good retail store and befriend the owner.  Buy all your products there, to include chips and anything else that goes with your bourbon.  Get on his list and be patient.  The premium bourbon will come and at a sane price but DO NOT buy from flippers.  Do without but don't be a part of the problem.  Cheers to you all

Well Said, Mark S.     Good summation of my thoughts as well.

[Bourbonmakesmepoop]

I buy from a mom and pop store that sets me up nicely with limiteds, but every once in awhile I go into a bigger store just to see if I get lucky and stumble onto something good. I did this yesterday and the guy I talked to at twin liquors said he knows a guy who just traveled through 10 states stealing up all the BTAC, claims he makes $100,000 a year reselling the shit, it is his job, literally.

I threw up in my mouth a little when I heard that.

[Saul_cooperstein]

In truth I don't care much about flippers directly as I don't feel as though I have, or should have, any special right to any liquor product whether LE or otherwise and therefore don't really take offense or get jealous when someone else buys or gets an allocation instead of me for whatever reason or for whatever their eventual purpose with the booze. There is so much good booze that is priced efficiently that I will never run out of good things to drink at reasonable prices. 

 

However I do believe that flippers existence is only around because of increased demand for American whiskey (a really good thing) and market inefficiencies many of which are driven by the multi-tiered liquor distribution system, the numerous regulatory requirements around selling booze and pricing / allocation practices of distilleries / distributors that for whatever reasons price certain products significantly below secondary market values. 

 

Only when these inefficiencies get fixed will flippers go away (as they did for many cult California wines as mailing list prices slowly equalized to secondary market prices over a 10-15 year period). However I do not see the market for LEs returning to pre-boom secondary/market pricing levels anytime soon because of the continuing increase in American whiskey demand...which leads me to think that a secondary market without flippers would only happen with the MSRP for things like BTAC being several times what they are now.

 

So ask yourself, would you rather have flippers plus the chance to maybe get a few bottles of LE each year at their current below secondary market MSRP or just have all the LEs prices really close to secondary and just hang out on the shelves until they are gradually sold - like AH Hirsch or Jefferson 17 when they were first released. The inefficiencies that allow flippers to operate are also the same that allow us (whenever we may be lucky) to get LEs at an MSRP that is significantly below the secondary market. 

 

I also think think a lot of the hatred towards the flippers may be driven more by the market itself and changing supply / demand relationships that make it increasingly more difficult and more expensive every year (even at MSRP) to acquire LEs than by the flippers themselves. Flippers are just an easy target vs getting into the complex supply/demand, regulatory, pricing and allocation dynamics that allow them to have a business model.

 

If only liquor laws were consistent with wine laws and we could have all gotten a spot on a PVW or BTAC mailing lists years ago...except then I would be complaining about having to purchase a full allocation every year to keep my spot on the list and the amount of price increases every year. 

[smokinjoe]

46 minutes ago, Saul_cooperstein said:

In truth I don't care much about flippers directly as I don't feel as though I have, or should have, any special right to any liquor product whether LE or otherwise and therefore don't really take offense or get jealous when someone else buys or gets an allocation instead of me for whatever reason or for whatever their eventual purpose with the booze. There is so much good booze that is priced efficiently that I will never run out of good things to drink at reasonable prices. 

 

However I do believe that flippers existence is only around because of increased demand for American whiskey (a really good thing) and market inefficiencies many of which are driven by the multi-tiered liquor distribution system, the numerous regulatory requirements around selling booze and pricing / allocation practices of distilleries / distributors that for whatever reasons price certain products significantly below secondary market values. 

 

Only when these inefficiencies get fixed will flippers go away (as they did for many cult California wines as mailing list prices slowly equalized to secondary market prices over a 10-15 year period). However I do not see the market for LEs returning to pre-boom secondary/market pricing levels anytime soon because of the continuing increase in American whiskey demand...which leads me to think that a secondary market without flippers would only happen with the MSRP for things like BTAC being several times what they are now.

 

So ask yourself, would you rather have flippers plus the chance to maybe get a few bottles of LE each year at their current below secondary market MSRP or just have all the LEs prices really close to secondary and just hang out on the shelves until they are gradually sold - like AH Hirsch or Jefferson 17 when they were first released. The inefficiencies that allow flippers to operate are also the same that allow us (whenever we may be lucky) to get LEs at an MSRP that is significantly below the secondary market. 

 

I also think think a lot of the hatred towards the flippers may be driven more by the market itself and changing supply / demand relationships that make it increasingly more difficult and more expensive every year (even at MSRP) to acquire LEs than by the flippers themselves. Flippers are just an easy target vs getting into the complex supply/demand, regulatory, pricing and allocation dynamics that allow them to have a business model.

 

If only liquor laws were consistent with wine laws and we could have all gotten a spot on a PVW or BTAC mailing lists years ago...except then I would be complaining about having to purchase a full allocation every year to keep my spot on the list and the amount of price increases every year. 

Now, that is a solid, well thought out, and logical summation.  Some folks just don't want to face the reality that the demand for these things is so greatly higher than the supply, and that's why they're a tough find.  If one could wave a magic wand over the market as to totally eliminate hoarding, buying for flipping, whatever, it would have zero impact on our ability to find these LE's on the shelves.  Because the line of so called "good guy" bourbon drinkers who buy for the "right" reasons and await the release of these LE's is very, very long.  Sorry, but this is the reality of  this type of market.  

[flahute]

^^^^^^^Not the first time Joe has said this and it remains true.

 

Around here, the days of knowing when the LE's would arrive and showing up early for them are over because the stores have gone to different allocation methods such as lotteries, lists, and selling to membership tiers via email.

Before this, dedicated enthusiasts such as myself would show up at 5am and wait until the store opened at 9am. (There were no store announcements about the arrival date. The enthusiasts would figure it out via hints from the manager who knew who his best customers were). We always knew everyone else in line and that they didn't flip. Not everyone got a bottle. This was a couple years ago and it's only gotten worse as more people come into the market.

[MelissaM]

My other hobby is pinball and arcade collecting and restoring. There too flippers have ruined it. Guys seeing a nice deal and snagging it up just to turn it for profit. I can't stand it. I get it, free market, folks are willing to pay, whatever.  It's already hard enough to find stuff with the legitimate competition out there.  Then you have to deal with these yahoos.

 

Our local shop pretty much hoards all of their special releases throughout the year and then does one massive release before the holidays. Last year they had 31 gift baskets. I was number 19 in line. The four folks in front of me couldn't stop talking about how much money they were going to make off of their baskets. Eventually they would end up in hands of  a bourbon enthusiast, but at what cost?