The types of "Flippers" or is there even a difference?

[VAGentleman]

Not defending flippers (I don't buy off the secondary market) but what is the difference between a flipper clearing the shelves and an individual clearing the shelves of a particular bourbon? The ability of an "enthusiast" to get the bottle is the same, they can't. Actually at least if a flipper buys them other individuals actually have a better chance of getting a bottle, although at a higher price. Food for thought.

[PaulO]

I've often wondered how many of the bottles being flipped got there by being diverted from regular retail. I mean any of the middle men between the distillery and the store, or bar, or restaurant. For any of us it would seem like such hard work. I'm thinking most people could do something legit to earn extra money. It would be so much easier.

I would never deal in the secondary (black) market. I wonder how many people get ripped off: counterfeit goods or no goods. I remember when I could just walk in and buy VW or BTAC at retail. I'd feel like a fool now to pay any big mark up.

There is plenty of great bourbon to be easily found in stores. Besides distillery gift shop bottles, Indy area gets just about everything they have in KY these days. No need to over pay, play lotteries, stand in line, or kiss anyone's ass.

Secondary market = we watch the children play. :cool:

[BigBoldBully]

Not defending flippers (I don't buy off the secondary market) but what is the difference between a flipper clearing the shelves and an individual clearing the shelves of a particular bourbon? The ability of an "enthusiast" to get the bottle is the same, they can't. Actually at least if a flipper buys them other individuals actually have a better chance of getting a bottle, although at a higher price. Food for thought.

Every bottle bought by a flipper is a bottle that will not be sold at retail through normal, legal channels to the end consumer (“enthusiastâ€). Besides price, the provenance of that bottle and degree of assurance that it has not been tampered with or negligently mistreated in some way are also adversely affected.

The group of enthusiast end consumers/sharers not willing to buy on the black market (hopefully the overwhelming majority; hereafter “enthusiastsâ€) is directly impacted, even if every member of that group was never guaranteed access to a bottle in the absence of flippers. In other words, flippers aggressively buying up bottles changes the equation and effectively makes it as though those bottles were never produced at all so far as these enthusiasts are concerned. In an extreme case, with flippers buying all the bottles, it is as though none of the bourbon was produced.

At least where enthusiasts are clearing the shelves, some fraction of the group has had its bourbon desires satisfied–and with each release that fraction will tend to vary so that eventually everyone ends up with some of what he/she wanted.

[Tony Santana]

If one could waive a magic wand over Bourbonia and completely wipe out the Secondary Market and the "flippers clearing out the shelves", Joe Blow Enthusiast would have only the tiniest increase in availability and opportunity to buy the LE's, Specialty, and desirable bottles. The line of "reputable" purchasers is many rows deep. The "Market" is that deep.

There continues to be a mistaken belief that the "Secondary" market is "THE" market. It's not.

Ultimately I think you're right about this. There are enough enthusiasts out there now that any store with a decent selection that gets LE's has a customer base that probably exceeds the amount of available bottles, even if it is "one per customer". That said, the presence of the secondary market does increase the hype ("I better buy it right now even if I don't need it, or it will be gone tomorrow"), and I think it's contributed to price inflation.

VAGentleman makes a good point as well. Personally, if I now stumble across a few ETL's or Weller 12's, something of that ilk that's not an LE but is getting harder to find (and is being flipped on the secondary market), I'll grab a bottle or maybe two, but I'm not clearing the shelf. Leave some for others who will hopefully appreciate it and not flip it, although there's obviously no guarantee of that. Now, if I ran across a whole shelf of Van Winkles? Not likely to happen, so I guess my integrity won't have to face that test.

[Tony Santana]

Although honestly, I'd probably buy them all, keep a couple and sell the rest to my buddies at cost.

[VAGentleman]

I don't know, just playing devil's advocate, but I know a few enthusiasts who do buy on the secondary market because that is the only way they can get some things they want. If you bought all of the LE's or ETL, or W12 at a particular store they wouldn't have the opportunity to get it. With a flipper they do. Not saying it right but its another way to look at things.

THis was a reply to BBB

Edited September 23, 2015 by VAGentleman
reply to correct person

[flahute]

I don't know, just playing devil's advocate, but I know a few enthusiasts who do buy on the secondary market because that is the only way they can get some things they want. If you bought all of the LE's or ETL, or W12 at a particular store they wouldn't have the opportunity to get it. With a flipper they do. Not saying it right but its another way to look at things.

THis was a reply to BBB

The difference between a flipper clearing the shelf vs. an enthusiast is that the enthusiast will eventually be satisfied that they have enough and not buy anymore the next time they see it. We already see this happening amongst our membership in the "what did you pass on today" thread. I see it frequently now.

[BigBoldBully]

I don't know, just playing devil's advocate, but I know a few enthusiasts who do buy on the secondary market because that is the only way they can get some things they want. If you bought all of the LE's or ETL, or W12 at a particular store they wouldn't have the opportunity to get it. With a flipper they do. Not saying it right but its another way to look at things.

THis was a reply to BBB

It is certainly true hypothetically that if enthusiasts tend to clear the shelf for themselves, whereas flippers tend to sell bottles one at a time, the bottles will be spread among more people--although not among the people I identified as my protagonists--the ones who would not be willing to deal with black market criminals. If it were not illegal to resell bourbon without a license, and if it were not a consumable item with its attendant concerns, I think there would be occasion to think much more seriously about flippers as performing a valuable service. (On the other hand, we would still need to find a way to factor out the influence of flippers on the shelf-clearing behavior of enthusiasts.)

[Halifax]

The difference between a flipper clearing the shelf vs. an enthusiast is that the enthusiast will eventually be satisfied that they have enough and not buy anymore the next time they see it. We already see this happening amongst our membership in the "what did you pass on today" thread. I see it frequently now.

I suspect there are plenty of enthusiasts who clear shelves. They bunker some, and flip the rest to pay for the ones they bunkered. Fairly common practice out there.

[Conquistador]

The difference between a flipper clearing the shelf vs. an enthusiast is that the enthusiast will eventually be satisfied that they have enough and not buy anymore the next time they see it. We already see this happening amongst our membership in the "what did you pass on today" thread. I see it frequently now.

I suspect there are plenty of enthusiasts who clear shelves. They bunker some, and flip the rest to pay for the ones they bunkered. Fairly common practice out there.

Well, this brings up an interesting question. I'm pretty sure we all consider ourselves to be part of the "enthusiast" crowd, but how many of us purchase just for personal consumption/gifting/hoarding (fear of price increases, fear of production change affecting taste, etc.), versus adding in the component of flipping?

I'm with flahute. I haven't flipped a single bottle, and I don't intend to do it. I'll admit it, I've cleared a shelf or two in my day, but mostly of mid-shelf and higher-shelf (but not LE/tip-top shelf) bourbons. When I was in TX a year ago, I went into a shop and cleared them of W12, but when I went into the next shop and saw more, I passed. Just like flahute said, I had gotten my fill, and I left the rest for the next enthusiast. In 2014, I was in a shop in Los Angeles, and just happened to stumble onto 3 bottles of 2015 4R SBLE, which I snagged, but as I was standing on line to check out, 2 other guys in the shop saw what I had, and they were both bemoaning that they were looking for that bottle. They weren't whining for me to let them have one, but I just said what the heck, and handed off a bottle, so we each had 1 of what we wanted. And even if I kept all 3 for myself, I would have consumed them, and not flipped them.

Considering that "flipping" and "flipper" have such a negative connotation to many on this board, I doubt we could get a completely honest tally of who amongst our enthusiast crowd flips bottles.

[Phil T]

The flipping thread is always an interesting and volatile read. I really enjoy the varied responses. I've made no bones about it through the years, flippers don't bother me at all. It is their property, they can do anything they want with it. I can pretty much walk into any liquor store on any given day and buy quality bourbons. Sure, I miss walking in and being able to buying everything and anything , but I'm not deprived.

Several of us were talking in Bardstown in April about "secondary " prices. The market is real, and sometimes the money involved is amazing . We have a lot of members here who built substantial bunkers before the current boom. I certainly understand the alluring aspect of selling a single bottle for 4 figures. Who could blame them?

[BigBoldBully]

It is their property, they can do anything they want with it.

While I agree with most of what you have said, they can't (legally) do anything they want with it. "There can be no doubt that it is against the law to sell alcohol without a license," to quote Mr. Cowdery.

[Tony Santana]

Considering that "flipping" and "flipper" have such a negative connotation to many on this board, I doubt we could get a completely honest tally of who amongst our enthusiast crowd flips bottles.

Here's my tally, whether you consider it honest or not. I've never flipped a bottle. I've never bought a bottle on the secondary market. I have made a few trades, although not many. I have on occasion bought rarer bottles I did not intend to drink, but it was always to gift them or to sell them to enthusiast friends at cost. I don't like the concept of flipping bourbon, but I'm not opposed to it in almost any other context. And if I knew I was going to meet an untimely demise, I'd tell my wife which bottles in my collection that SHE could sell at a tidy profit. If that makes me a hypocrite, so be it.

[Phil T]

While I agree with most of what you have said, they can't (legally) do anything they want with it. "There can be no doubt that it is against the law to sell alcohol without a license," to quote Mr. Cowdery.

Agreed. But we all pick our poison.. no?? I break the law on a daily basis...I speed. So I would argue..they can do anything they want with it...I never said there are not consequences...maybe!

[petrel800]

Agreed. But we all pick our poison.. no?? I break the law on a daily basis...I speed. So I would argue..they can do anything they want with it...I never said there are not consequences...maybe!

[BigBoldBully]

Agreed. But we all pick our poison.. no?? I break the law on a daily basis...I speed.

[B.B. Babington]

I'm a flipper. I flip my glass at the guy holding the bottle begging for another pour.

[flahute]

Several of us were talking in Bardstown in April about "secondary " prices. The market is real, and sometimes the money involved is amazing . We have a lot of members here who built substantial bunkers before the current boom. I certainly understand the alluring aspect of selling a single bottle for 4 figures. Who could blame them?

One could argue there's a difference between the guy who bunkered considerably before bourbon got to boom status (as in, they purchased said bottles when they were plentiful and relatively few wanted them) deciding to sell a bottle because someone will pay stupid money for it versus the Johnny Come Lately who simply sees a money making scheme and drives around all day during release season buying any and all limiteds/allocateds with the clear intent to sell for a profit immediately. The former is making a long since discontinued bottle available whereas the latter is making all current bottles unavailable at msrp. It's still illegal of course, but the intent is very different.

[Jesse11]

Based on the arguments presented in this thread and supported by seemingly most people, that person is a flipper if he's exploiting current secondary market pricing. That person should sell the bottle at probably current retail price at most. If that person were truly as altruistic as you're implying, he would not have hoarded the stuff in the first place. He would have bought bottles as needed. That way, people who came into the hobby later could have potentially still found these bottles still sitting on the shelves years later at retail price.

Both the flipper and the hoarder are manipulating and taking advantage of the market.

[The Black Tot]

What makes a flipper a flipper is known intent to extort a higher price from a fellow consumer who can't find the limited item he or she wants.

It's pretty easy - Are you planning to ask someone you don't know to pay you more than something cost you, when you yourself aren't a licensed dealer of said item? Then you're the bad kind of flipper. Full stop. You are exploiting fellow drinkers for your own benefit - there's no way around it/justification. Consider changing your ways. If you can't afford limited edition bourbons any other way, find bourbon you can afford without "having" (in quotes because it is not a necessity) to stick it to people.

That includes the "half for me, half flipped to pay for them" flipper.

That includes the "I can turn bottle X (which I don't want) that I'm looking at on the store shelf right now into bottle Y (that I do want)" flipper

The idea that selling something held for what can sometimes be less than a day at 300% profit can be considered "a service" to people who couldn't otherwise find these bottles is ludicrous. With "service providers" like that, who needs enemies?

Flipping does not include the enthusiast who cleared the shelves years ago of stuff that sat there for 10yrs+ collecting dust because nobody gave a damn. Nobody gave a damn - that's the whole point, and you know full well that doesn't apply to the Stagg you just found on the shelf in 2015 at MSRP.

It also doesn't include people who sell for cost plus shipping. THAT is helping the enthusiast community. Profit and distribution charity are pretty easily distinguished.

The good news is it's easy not to buy from flippers. I don't buy limited pours in bars anymore either, since on-premise accounts started diverting so many of the limiteds away from us straight from the distributors. Buying from a flipper is the ultimate "buy high, sell low" investment, in the sense that you sell it for zero, effectively, when you drink it. Nobody needs limited edition whiskey. You see comments from flipper-customers all the time like "There was no other way..." of "What choice did I have?" - The choice was easy - just drink something else that was available instead and don't play a part in the shit show.

People say flipping is a result of market forces, but I think that's half of it - the other half is cultural forces currently at play. The need to be conspicuously consuming rare and expensive things seems to be becoming a dangerously rising arbiter of people's self-worth/image. The other day I saw someone post a picture of an astronomical dinner tab for one - nearly $500, with the caption paraphrased to the price was very fair. The idea that you need a $300+ bottle in order to make your celebration legitimate seems to be going viral in certain circles. That's kind of "the market", but it's also a growing swath of people losing their damned minds...

[RWBadley]

One could argue there's a difference between the guy who bunkered considerably before bourbon got to boom status (as in, they purchased said bottles when they were plentiful and relatively few wanted them) deciding to sell a bottle because someone will pay stupid money for it versus the Johnny Come Lately who simply sees a money making scheme and drives around all day during release season buying any and all limiteds/allocateds with the clear intent to sell for a profit immediately. The former is making a long since discontinued bottle available whereas the latter is making all current bottles unavailable at msrp. It's still illegal of course, but the intent is very different.

A good point is made here. Back in the '90s I bought a case or more of AH Hirsch 20 and 16 yo. Fast forward to a few years ago and one of the last bottles I had went up on an auction site for sale to sponsor a trip to Kentucky for a Distillery tour. Win-Win.

A number of years back I came into a substantial stash in the basement of an old lady neighbor of mine. Some bottles from as far back to prohibition medicinal. She was very pleased to have some of those bottles turned into usable funds. I was very happy to have the opportunity to keep some of those bottles for my own collection while also being able to give her moneys gained from the sale of some of those bottles. I was even in the position to share some of those vintage bottles with others on this site here. Win-Win-Win!

I agree the current foul practice of scooping up desireables off the shelf to turn them over for pure mercenary reasons is to be looked down upon. Having said that, we are a capitalist society- why should there be any real surprise at somebody filling a market force while creating income? A fact of life we can't live without.

Siting the illegality of the venture involved ignores the existence of many other suchlike endeavors. Anybody familiar with the 18th amendment and the market forces created?

Cheers,

RW

[flahute]

......The need to be conspicuously consuming rare and expensive things seems to be becoming a dangerously rising arbiter of people's self-worth/image. The other day I saw someone post a picture of an astronomical dinner tab for one - nearly $500, with the caption paraphrased to the price was very fair. The idea that you need a $300+ bottle in order to make your celebration legitimate seems to be going viral in certain circles. That's kind of "the market", but it's also a growing swath of people losing their damned minds...

Yes and yes! The older generation that existed before easy credit understood the value of things and would be largely embarrased to be seen consuming something considered to be 'too expensive'. Ever since easy credit became available, the need for instant gratification has driven people to live lives that appear to be more affluent than they really are. Thus, you get early 20 somethings asking strangers on facebook for a $200 + bottle recommendation for that "special" evening out with friends. It's all about the perceived quality that comes from having spent that much money. Yes, they ARE losing their damned minds.

[nd2005]

It's all the same. People who try to make a distinction between "flippers" and "swappers" are doing it to try and make themselves feel better or separate themselves through some artificial moral line. People here and other sites love to hold themselves out as some sort of purist whose love o' the whiskey makes them better than the other guys out there chasing the same bottles.

But if you look at the root cause, it's the exact same. You "swap" for the same reason others "flip": to turn your bottles into something more desirable. Whether that more desirable something is cash or a more expensive/rare/desirable bourbon is an artificial distinction.

[The Black Tot]

It's all the same. People who try to make a distinction between "flippers" and "swappers" are doing it to try and make themselves feel better or separate themselves through some artificial moral line. People here and other sites love to hold themselves out as some sort of purist whose love o' the whiskey makes them better than the other guys out there chasing the same bottles.

But if you look at the root cause, it's the exact same. You "swap" for the same reason others "flip": to turn your bottles into something more desirable. Whether that more desirable something is cash or a more expensive/rare/desirable bourbon is an artificial distinction.

It's not artificial at all. In a trade of like value for like value for the purposes of drinking, who exactly is getting screwed? You really can't see the difference between that and a 300% cash markup based purely on "I got there first and bought everything"? Trading for drinking is a victimless crime. Exploitation flipping is not.

[BigBoldBully]

It's all the same. People who try to make a distinction between "flippers" and "swappers" are doing it to try and make themselves feel better or separate themselves through some artificial moral line. People here and other sites love to hold themselves out as some sort of purist whose love o' the whiskey makes them better than the other guys out there chasing the same bottles.

But if you look at the root cause, it's the exact same. You "swap" for the same reason others "flip": to turn your bottles into something more desirable. Whether that more desirable something is cash or a more expensive/rare/desirable bourbon is an artificial distinction.

The flaw with this assertion, I think, is that you are presuming to know "the reason" everyone who trades does it. Although I have never traded, I see no moral objection to some types of trading. For instance, if someone buys a couple bottles of a wheated bourbon thinking he loves it, but his tastes change and he ends up wishing one was something else. So he trades his wheater for a comparable bottle of rye recipe. The latter is more "desirable" but only when considering the tastes of the individuals involved, not the market as a whole. Or maybe he bought WT101 rye thinking it was actually WT101 bourbon. "Wanna swap my rye for your bourbon?" How can these examples (and there are surely other morally inoffensive scenarios) be equated to "flipping"? The first could be equated to someone buying whiskey intending to drink it, then losing the interest or ability to do so and selling it without making a profit--but surely that person is not a flipper, is he?

(PC note: References to "he" intended to be a shorthand representation for humans of any gender.)