Booker's MSRP and allocation?

[smokinjoe]

1 hour ago, Bourbonmakesmepoop said:

From what I'm readingon this thread, maybe this will finally be the straw that breaks the camels back on the bourbon boom, especially if other brands follow suit.

Nope.

[Mule Skinner]

I'm 100% pure capitalist, so I say let the market decide.  I've got a few on the shelf already, and will not rush out to buy anymore.  

[fishnbowljoe]

After contemplating this a little more, I'm wondering.................

 

For a long time the Beam Small Batch (except for maybe KC) seemed overpriced to me. Booker's and Basil Hayden's, and to a lesser extent Baker's, seemed to linger on the shelves longer than most stuff. The last year or so, the prices on these have come down quite a bit. One has to be under the impression that sales improved quite a bit. So much so that maybe it put a monkey wrench into their system. Know what I mean?   And who can forget the infamous Knob Creek drought back in 2009?  Rather than face another drought, maybe Beam is adjusting the price of Booker's drastically just so they don't run out. I could be all wrong, but what the hey. It's food for thought anyway.

 

Cheers! Joe

[flahute]

I've long thought that Beam, with all the stocks it has, has been missing out on the premium boom being enjoyed by Buffalo Trace and to a lesser extent 4R and Heaven Hill. 

Every fall, enthusiasts get all worked up about the LE's coming from these guys and it generates a lot of buzz. Buffalo Trace benefits the most because their LE's dominate the category. So I've wondered why Beam doesn't have something for this time of year. 

I thought they were going to get in on the action when Booker's 25th came out and was a success. But they keep releasing one offs. They had an incredible opportunity with KC 2001 but they blew it with the implementation. 

Now we have Booker's for $100. I think they are blowing it again. It will likely still sell to the newcomers who believe price=quality but the alienation it's causing among current enthusiasts is creating the wrong kind of buzz.

 

I think they'd be better served by creating a once a year special edition Booker's with more age on it and from a special rickhouse. Go ahead and limit regular Booker's so less of it is out there, but create something special that everyone looks forward to once a year. They can do this with other brands as well. It's not hard. I'm not sure why they keep choosing the difficult path.

[Spade]

12 hours ago, smokinjoe said:

  In the global whiskey world, $100 for a barrel proof/cask strength whiskey of high quality is no where near out of line.  It's been written here a thousand times how Bookers, ECSB, FRPS, etc., are great QPR's.  Great products in any marketplace should not be great QPR's if you own them.

 

Is this right? Springbank 12 year cask strength is close, I think I paid $90. It's of course twice as old. Lahproaig 10 year cs is about $65 or so (owned by Suntory so maybe not for long).

 

My sense is people pay for quality, scarcity, and age. Booker's has quality but it's not scarce and it is young. $50-$55 seemed right. And for want it's worth I pass on FRPS when I see it at $65+.

[BFerguson]

I've long thought that Beam, with all the stocks it has, has been missing out on the premium boom being enjoyed by Buffalo Trace and to a lesser extent 4R and Heaven Hill. 

Maybe it's just me, and it often is, but I've often never thought that the Beam recipe, was destined for aging greatness.

I've had some stellar FR and HH bottles before, but even with Beams distillers masterpiece, when I sampled that I only thought, that's really nice, but it still tastes like a really good basic Beam bottle.

It just wasn't something that wowed me. And certainly, raising the price of the bottle is not wowing me any more.

While I should bunker a few, I'm not. And I'm someone who bunkered WSR when it lost the age statement.

The madness just keeps funny at full speed.

B



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[Dgriffin]

I am new to SB , but i am wondering how often do rumors like this come up and turn out not to be true?

[flahute]

7 minutes ago, BFerguson said:

 

Maybe it's just me, and it often is, but I've often never thought that the Beam recipe, was destined for aging greatness.

I've had some stellar FR and HH bottles before, but even with Beams distillers masterpiece, when I sampled that I only thought, that's really nice, but it still tastes like a really good basic Beam bottle.

It just wasn't something that wowed me. And certainly, raising the price of the bottle is not wowing me any more.

While I should bunker a few, I'm not. And I'm someone who bunkered WSR when it lost the age statement.

The madness just keeps funny at full speed.

B



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I've had some stellar KC single barrels in the 12-14 year range. Booker's Rye shined at 13. Booker's 25th shined at 10. OGD with some more age on it could be exceptional.

They can do it.

[flahute]

1 minute ago, Dgriffin said:

I am new to SB , but i am wondering how often do rumors like this come up and turn out not to be true?

Rumors come up all the time but we have a lot of well connected people here so we get to the bottom of them rather quickly.

Unfounded rumors don't tend to fester for very long.

[Hop]

At first I was surprised then after thinking about it I understood it more.  Supply and Demand is pretty simple even when supply may not be threatened.  I've not bought Bookers since last year when I laid in a supply of Center Cut but recall seeing it earlier in the Fall at $39.99 like some others and if I see that again I'll likely buy 3-4 more of whatever batch is available

[BigRich]

 

 
My sense is people pay for quality, scarcity, and age. Booker's has quality but it's not scarce and it is young. $50-$55 seemed right. And for want it's worth I pass on FRPS when I see it at $65+.

I'm inclined to agree with Spade. There was a time of high QPR for these brands but as prices have risen over the last ten years I find that much less so. Booker's is just not a $100 bottle of bourbon based on what they put on the shelf now. As someone mentioned earlier I think they would be better served by holding back distribution and reserving stocks for special releases rather than throwing some lipstick on the same bottle and try to convince you that it is worth twice as much.


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[smokinjoe]

1 hour ago, Spade said:

 

Is this right? Springbank 12 year cask strength is close, I think I paid $90. It's of course twice as old. Lahproaig 10 year cs is about $65 or so (owned by Suntory so maybe not for long).

 

My sense is people pay for quality, scarcity, and age. Booker's has quality but it's not scarce and it is young. $50-$55 seemed right. And for want it's worth I pass on FRPS when I see it at $65+.

Comparing ages between scotch and bourbon is pure folly.  The age process conditions are just too different.  And historically, 6-7 years aging is well aged, and honestly right in Beam's sweet spot IMO.  Point is, whether or not yours, mine, or anyone else's opinions lead to purchasing or not, $100 is nothing in today's whiskey market.

[Louisiana]

I also agree on the age part. The Bookers Rye pushed the limits at a little over 13 years. The winter edition of Whiskey Advocate Top 10 has 25, 37, & 38 year whiskies in it. Comparing Scotch to Bourbon is the equivalent to Comparing Apples to Oranges.  Someone used Beaver Bourbon as a reference to " Old Bourbon " a while back. I think that term would apply to most Bourbon over 10-12 years of aging. There are a few exceptions, but not many.

 

 

Edited December 10, 2016 by Louisiana

[Spade]

1 hour ago, smokinjoe said:

Comparing ages between scotch and bourbon is pure folly.  The age process conditions are just too different.  And historically, 6-7 years aging is well aged, and honestly right in Beam's sweet spot IMO.  Point is, whether or not yours, mine, or anyone else's opinions lead to purchasing or not, $100 is nothing in today's whiskey market.

 

I wasn't trying to directly compare the aging process of scotch and whiskey but see I was unclear in what I wrote. My point was there's plenty of great cask strength whiskey that's less than $100. And, for what it's worth, I think Booker's can be great at its current age.

 

The more specific point is that people have been willing to pay $100 or more under certain conditions and Booker's just doesn't seem like it meets those conditions as we've traditionally understood them.

 

In terms of $100 being nothing, I don't think I agree with that. $100 is unprecdented for a regularly available bottle of bourbon, isn't it? The only things I regularly see on the shelf at or above that price are the Wild Turkey limited releases and the 2015 Knob Creek. People go crazy (and I wonder if I mean that literally, just kidding... kind of) for things that used to be regularly available but now aren't and are willing to pay through the rook. But that's just not Booker's — it really is in every well stocked liquor store.

 

In other words, while this is of course related to the overall boom, this move strikes me as fundamentally from different super-priced limited editions and other allocated bottles (Weller 12, ETL, etc.).

Edited December 10, 2016 by Spade

[Whiskey Dick]

it typically has been on every store shelf, regularly available, but I think thats about to change. By next week, I bet shelves will be cleared of it, and it will reappear when the $100 batches show up. It will sell, but slower than usual. I refuse to pay that much for any bourbon though.

 

I can kind of understand their reasoning though. Walking down the aisles today, Bookers at $50 is the cheapest barrel proofer available, and has been for a long time. Seeing NDP's and BT sell barrel proofers for $80+, with BT still not able to keep up with demand, I am sure they feel like they are selling themselves short in this market.

 

Booker's, KC, KCSB, and OGD114 were the only Beam products I bought. I guess WT and HH will get all my business now

[Thig]

I am new to SB , but i am wondering how often do rumors like this come up and turn out not to be true?

Rumors do come up but when you have two well respected writers like Fred Minnick and Chuck Cowdery confirming the rumor it gives it a lot of validity.

[smokinjoe]

The days of bourbon being simply a budget play in the overall whiskey market are over.  There is no qualitative difference between Bourbon and Scotch (the high price leader), so why not begin to price the appropriate brands in those price tiers?   Indeed, bourbon producers having products that are in incredible demand worldwide, and in short supply, are continuing to price their products accordingly.  And, they should.  I think it can be argued that Booker's is King of the "regularly released" bourbons, for a number of reasons.  It is right that they at least try to price it at the highest level, even if it pushes some away from buying it.  

[mbroo5880i]

36 minutes ago, smokinjoe said:

The days of bourbon being simply a budget play in the overall whiskey market are over.  There is no qualitative difference between Bourbon and Scotch (the high price leader), so why not begin to price the appropriate brands in those price tiers?   Indeed, bourbon producers having products that are in incredible demand worldwide, and in short supply, are continuing to price their products accordingly.  And, they should.  I think it can be argued that Booker's is King of the "regularly released" bourbons, for a number of reasons.  It is right that they at least try to price it at the highest level, even if it pushes some away from buying it.  

 

What you say makes sense, but I am trying to think historically of any ubiquitous spirits product that doubled in price over night, especially one in a competitive environment such as we have today.  There are a lot of great options that can replace it and at half the cost.  The average consumer is just as happy with a BIB as with a CS bottle.  They have to expect significant media attention none of which will be positive. Now, if they gradually cut the allocation to make it scarcer, it would be much easier to raise the price 25% (or whatever number without much thought), then rachet it again 6 to 12 months later, so that within an 18-24 month period, they have the allocation and pricing where they want it.  I am not arguing whether the price is justified for the product in today's environment because that is not for me to decide, except on a personal basis.  However, I am a little curious about the approach which also isn't for me to decide.

 

My guess is if you want to buy Bookers for $50 you better do so this week because the shelves will be cleared before Christmas.  Then January 1 (or whenever), the price goes up.  I might grab one or two just to have around.

[lcpfratn]

There is a huge difference in the best Scotch and Bourbon lead times and the associated costs of that time. In regards to Booker's, it's been argued in this thread that 6 to 8 years of age is perfect for it with some arguing that maybe 8 to 10 years might be achievable now. Good 12 year scotches are available in the $60 to $70 range and many cask strength scotches can be had for around the $100 price point, but with substantially more age than Booker's. I'm sorry, but I don't see the price justification for regularly released younger good quality Bourbon being priced equivalent to older good quality single malt Scotch...all other things being equal.

I also don't know about other markets, but Booker's is already generally priced higher around here than Stagg Jr, and it is similarly priced to ECBP, yet both of them are not as regularly available as Booker's. ECBP is certainly worth more than Booker's to me for many reasons. I buy ECBP when I find it at at around $60-$70 a bottle, but pass on Booker's at the same price. I'll occasionally buy Booker's when I find it around $50 because as far as I'm concerned that's all it is worth. I buy Stagg Jr at $50 too. Booker's at $100 is Beam's Folly.


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[FacePlant]

As I was driving home this afternoon with my newly purchased bottle of Bookers it hit me, and I started laughing like someone in a horror flick.

If I'm a giant distiller with my biggest premium brand lining the shelves in every LS in the US how do I move the entire national inventory in just a few short weeks? JB didn't get their size by being dumb. 

[lcpfratn]

As I was driving home this afternoon with my newly purchased bottle of Bookers it hit me, and I started laughing like someone in a horror flick.
If I'm a giant distiller with my biggest premium brand lining the shelves in every LS in the US how do I move the entire national inventory in just a few short weeks? JB didn't get their size by being dumb. 

That's pretty much the same thought that I had. I decided not to add any more to my stash since I already have several and prefer others just as much if not better.


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[Thig]

If I'm a giant distiller with my biggest premium brand lining the shelves in every LS in the US how do I move the entire national inventory in just a few short weeks? JB didn't get their size by being dumb. 

That may be true but every bottle of Bookers I have was purchased for 39.99 and at that price you can't go wrong even if the rumor is not true.

[garbanzobean]

Booker's isn't really my thing, but it is a good quality bourbon.  I saw the writing on the wall when the batches started getting fancy names.  There is a whole new generation of drinkers who have a price tolerance that just does not compute for many of us.  We just aren't speaking the same language anymore.  The 100% price increase infuriates us, but I guarantee the tried and true tactic of increasing prices while "allocating" the product will have the exact effect they want.  Blaming Beam Suntory for taking advantage of that fact is silly as they are not a nonprofit, but that does not mean we can't hold them accountable.  Don't like it?  Don't buy it.  Vote with your wallet.  Heck, avoid all their products from now on.

 

Anyone want to make any bets on how long it will take for Buffalo Trace/Sazerac to follow suit?  $100 for Stagg Jr, $150+ for CEHT releases, $300+ for BTAC, ONE MILLION DOLLAR$ for Teh Pappiez?  I know their allocation scheme is a little different from the other guys since they use these bottles to reward retailers for selling their other junk, but I think it's only a matter of time, and I think they'll almost have to do it if this market correction works out as well for Beam Suntory as I think it will.

Edited December 11, 2016 by garbanzobean

[mbroo5880i]

15 minutes ago, garbanzobean said:

Booker's isn't really my thing, but it is a good quality bourbon.  I saw the writing on the wall when the batches started getting fancy names.  There is a whole new generation of drinkers who have a price tolerance that just does not compute for many of us.  We just aren't speaking the same language anymore.  The 100% price increase infuriates us, but I guarantee the tried and true tactic of increasing prices while "allocating" the product will have the exact effect they want.  Blaming Beam Suntory for taking advantage of that fact is silly as they are not a nonprofit, but that does not mean we can't hold them accountable.  Don't like it?  Don't buy it.  Vote with your wallet.  Heck, avoid all their products from now on.

 

Anyone want to make any bets on how long it will take for Buffalo Trace/Sazerac to follow suit?  $100 for Stagg Jr, $150+ for CEHT releases, $300+ for BTAC, ONE MILLION DOLLAR$ for Teh Pappiez?  I know their allocation scheme is a little different from the other guys since they use these bottles to reward retailers for selling their other junk, but I think it's only a matter of time, and I think they'll almost have to do it if this market correction works out as well for Beam Suntory as I think it will.

 

Now I feel the need to run out a grab a few more bottles of CEHT.  

[lcpfratn]

History teaches us that all booms/bubbles eventually correct themselves...usually with a crash. And those that are deeply into it never see it coming and refuse to observe the tell-take signs that indicate that the boom/bubble may be about to burst. I've made a couple of comments on various threads that I think the bourbon boom/bubble may burst sooner than later and most have pretty much poo-poo'd that thought. Of course no one can predict these things, and I'll probably be proven wrong, but these types of actions are the kinds of tell-tale signs that make me wonder whether the end of the boom is near. Feel free to disagree because...what the hell do I know? Cheers!


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