What is your Favorite American Beer Now and what did you like many years ago?

[dave ziegler]

One of my old Time Favorite Ales is still one of my Favorites. I find that Ballantine XXX Ale is still a great tasting Ale, it is now owned again by the Pabst group and I am not sure who brews it for them but it is like the old days don't smell it just drink it cold. I find it to be Very Refreshing and flavorful not to heavy. It is one I always have a case of.

Dave Z

Beer Its Not Just A Beverage Its Food

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[jesskidden]

I find that Ballantine XXX Ale is still a great tasting Ale, it is now owned again by the Pabst group and I am not sure who brews it for them but it is like the old days ...

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Ballantine XXX Ale was my long time standard "house" beer (1970's-early 1980's)- there's no way I'd say it is anything close to same as it was during the Newark and Cranston eras or even the Ft. Wayne or Pabst Milwaukee days. I recently got a case from my b-i-l after I lent him some equipment and the flavor profile is so sad these days. No nice floral hop nose, none of that nice sweetness, the hoppiness is gone from the aftertaste.

I do notice that Pabst recently changed the cardboard case graphics, dropping "America's Largest Selling Ale" -which, of course, it isn't having lost that title to Genesee Cream Ale back in the 1980's and nowadays, who knows? Certainly SNPA probably outsells it easily. (The labels still says "ALSA", tho'). It now says "Dry Hopped Flavor". Don't know what *that* means- why not just "Dry Hopped"? (Of course, the original Ballantine XXX Ale wasn't dry hopped, but had brewery distilled hop oils added, by most accounts).

The ownership of the brand, despite what some internet sites suggest, has always been in the same hands since the sad demise of P. Ballantine and Sons in 1972. Falstaff bought the brands, S&P bought Falstaff and eventually Pabst. Currently the ale's brewed by Miller, in NC, as can be discerned by the date code on the neck of the bottles/bottom of the cans (in the second line of numbers, the second digit represents the brewery, in this case "5".) This is a recent change, last time we talked about it here*, it was still Ohio ("8").

There's a great history of the ale here- The Late, Great Ballantine Ales

(It's a few years old, so some of the info- like brewing site- is no longer accurate. In addition, some of the brewery history facts are wrong, too.)

* Gary Gillman and I have had several Ballantine discussions here on the forums since that was the subject that first led me here to Straightbourbon while I was doing some research on the brewery and brand.

[Gillman]

Ah Ballantine XXX again. I am not quite as down as Jess on the beer today. I had it in New York not too long ago and it seemed reasonably good to me.

I must say though it does seem variable, sometimes it has a bigger character than other times.

In Robertson's The Great American Beer Book (1978 edition), he states it is heavily hopped and strong-tasting, in fact he found it too hopped apparently even for his own taste. But that was then, when tastes had not accustomed fully to that of a true craft beer.

Still, the current profile seems lesser than it was then.

As for the IPA: I always hope it will come back, but sometimes I am having a beer and it reminds me of that IPA. Recently I was sampling Wells IPA in a can and it struck me as being similar. Sometimes the Granite Best Bitter at Granite Brewpub in Toronto is similar in taste.

I recall the taste quite well.

I also remember one (anyway) of the variations of Black Horse Ale. One of the beer writers, maybe Roberston, said it was like "talc" or "talcum powder" and that was true, it must have been the hops used.

By 1970 when I started consuming beer in Montreal, Black Horse was not sold any longer as far as I recall. The beer that was thought by some to contribute to multiple deaths in Quebec City - it was never shown to a certainty as far as I know - was, again this from memory, O'Keefe Ale. I thought even then this was a brand of Carling O'Keefe, which later merged with Molson.

Gary

[jesskidden]

Ballantine made a Porter, sold in the little stubby bottle, about 30 years ago, but no more.

Near as I can figure, Ballantine Porter disappeared in the late 40's or 1950's. It was still listed as one of their line up in the '39-40 NY World's Fair era literature (Ballantine was a big WF exhibitor) but was no longer offer by 1964 (in the official NJ state price listing). I have *vague* memories that it survived as a draught-only beer, perhaps even into the Falstaff era...

The Kaiers Porter was the very first porter I ever drank... By any chance did you ever drink Krueger? I have wanted to find someone who had drank Krueger just for their opinion of it!

Krueger was bought by Narragansett in 1960, so it was a bit too early for my drinking days. (However, I probably had a sip or two, since we lived in the Newark area and I certainly remember the old "K Man" logo as one of my earliest memories...)

I drank some of the Narrangansett/Falstaff brewed Kruger (and, maybe the Krueger Cream Ale). The Krueger Pilsener, at that time, came in same no-shoulder, slender clear deposit bottle that Miller High Life came in and in those clear US style stubbies- as a result, they often suffered from skunking.

Falstaff was still shipping the Krueger Old Surrey Porter to NJ as a draught only beer as late as the late-1970's and that was far and away my favorite porter of the era. It was much hoppier than most US porters and, like other Cranston brews like Croft and Pickwick, had a definite family relationship in taste to Ballantine XXX Ale. (Indeed, I wouldn't put it past Falstaff to having simply added "Porterine" to XXX Ale to make KOSP). I seem to remember that Falstaff also sold it as "Ballantine Porter" but I'm not sure about that at all.

The old Champlain Porter in Quebec had a similar licorice hint.

Ah, yes, I remember that Champlain Porter. When friends or I used to get to Canada we always tried to bring back some of the Big 3 brands that we couldn't get down here. The porters (I recall Molson Porter in stubbies and maybe a Labatt brewed one as well?) were quite nice- unlike the Canadian IPA's which were a BIG disappoint to Ballantine India Pale Ale drinkers- in particular the Labatt IPA.

The hoppiest Canadian ale I remember we found was Molson Stock Ale- sadly the one case we scored of that was mostly consumed before I got to the party, so I only had 1 bottle of it. (I've read that it, like many of the US pre-craft era ales, is a mere shadow of it's former self).

[jesskidden]

The beer that was thought by some to contribute to multiple deaths in Quebec City - it was never shown to a certainty as far as I know - was, again this from memory, O'Keefe Ale. I thought even then this was a brand of Carling O'Keefe, which later merged with Molson.

Gary

Opps. (OTOH, the "cobalt poisoning" story is always a good one to review)- did not mean to imply Black Horse Ale was *the* beer that had the "foam enhancer" problem, only that it was from the same brewing company.

I'm going by info in the book "Brewed in Canada: The Untold Story of Canada's 350 Year Old Brewing History" and it has the beer in question being "Dow Ale" and Dow, at the time, being owned by Canadian Breweries Ltd.-which would later become Carling-O'Keefe. (Pretty sure I've seen some interesting video on the story on a Canadian Brewing History website, too.)

The info that "Carling" neglected to retain the rights to the "Black Horse Ale" brand come from the Anderson book's interview with the owners of Diamond Springs.

My mistake was confusing "Dow" with "Dawes", which was the listed brewing company for Black Horse Ale in the US when it was an imported beer. So who/what was "Dawes Black Horse Brewery"? In the late 40's, the ale was listed as being brewed and bottled by "National Breweries Ltd., Montreal, Canada".

[Gillman]

Jess, thanks again, and you are right, I misspoke, that 1960's cobalt foam enhancer issue was linked to Dow Ale not O'Keefe Ale. Dow as a brand did not recover from the debacle although once again it was never shown conclusively that the beer caused the problem.

Gary

[Gillman]

Dawes was an old Montreal brewing concern, so it must have been the first brewer of Black Horse. By the 1950's, it sounds like it may have become part of the national Canadian Breweries business which as you said housed the Dow and O'Keefe brands in the 1960's and which later merged with Molson.

A note soon on the beers themselves.

Gary

[Gillman]

A note on these Canadian beers from the 1950's and 60's, i.e., the beers themselves:

Dow Ale: At this late date I cannot recall its palate. Probably it was similar to Molson Export and others of the Canadian sparkling ale-type that were popular then.

O'Keefe Ale: I recall this beer as being excellent for its type: carbonic, "fluffy", with good Canadian 6 row barley malt character and a light estery note. I am not sure if it is still sold. I think a beer branded O'Keefe may still be sold in parts of Canada but if so I would think it is a bottom-fermented beer made in enclosed big cylindrical/conical tanks (although I do not know for sure). I am not sure when O'Keefe Ale first came in, it may be after Dow expired as a brand but perhaps it originated earlier. It was very popular in Eastern Canada in the 1970's and 1980's. I will check at the beer store if a beer under this name is still available.

Molson Stock Ale: Still made, a beer that has a retro appeal to some in Ontario. Decent beer but not really reminiscent of English ales which are at the root (way back) of Canadian brewing tradition. Apparently all-malt.

Labatt 50: Good product, quite estery, made in open fermenters in London, Ontario in the era we are discussing. Still available and still good, you can get it on draft a block or two from where I work in Toronto.

Molson Export Ale: Still a good beer with an earthy, distinctive note. Malty for its type, not estery though (Labatt 50 is more so).

Labatt IPA: Not made for some 10 years now. Nice malty character, some hop notes of the non-aromatic type (as I recall). Not a micro-styled product but decent and probably very good when available on draft.

Alexander Keith's IPA: This big brewery beer, made by Labatt/Inbev, is excellent and notably estery, it has when fresh a distinctive pineapple note. It has sold very well since being introduced into Ontario from Nova Scotia.

Gary

[dave ziegler]

Another sad day coming I have heard that Ballantine XXX Ale might be going to be discontiued. So Far I have heard for sure no more in Cans, but do not know about Bottles yet. I am now going to get a spare case as I just Like it. May not be High end but to me it tastes Good!

Dave Z

Beer its Not Just A beverage Its Food

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[dave ziegler]

One Beer I drank when I was young I did not like Much was Sunshine Made also In Reading, I mostly Drank it if I got served below age and it was what was on draft! It just was not a very Good Beer from what I remember. Does Anyone Remember the Old Sunny 7 Bottles that had a guys Picture and said Sonny Says? I remember one night Drinking Sunshine and eating a Gino Giant! Good Old Gino's I remember the Song Everyone goes to Gin's cause Gino's is the place to Go Gino Marchette Foot ball great. The Gino's Burger's were way Better then Mac Donalds! The first Burger place we had around me was in Pottstown a Gino's and Gino's Had the .15 cent Burger then and it was delious.

Dave Z

Beer Its Not Just A Beverage Its Food

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[jesskidden]

Another sad day coming I have heard that Ballantine XXX Ale might be going to be discontiued.

That's not the impression that the CEO of Pabst gave in this portion of an interview he gave the magazine "Beverage World" a while back (there's a few factual errrors in his description, but, what they heck- some would have guessed the CEO of Pabst didn't even *know* they sold the ale).

Pabst CEO on Ballantine Ale

(Unfortunately, the rest of the interview isn't online, but I have the "hard copy" if anyone's interested. No other Ballantine info, tho').

Pabst recently released, and is putting some promo money behind, the "new/old" Schlitz, so such a "revival" isn't totally out of the question. (The "old" S&P, when Kalmanovitz was still alive, wouldn't have *dreamed* of spending anything on marketing.)

[Gillman]

They should re-release Ballantine IPA, I'm glad it's on his radar screen at least.

They should line-extend XXX too, make it all-malt, kick up the hops a bit, and market it with its weighty heritage in support. (For this to work, IMO it needs to come out as well in draft. I think it would go great in New York for example in front of illuminated neon signs with the three circles linked, people would love it).

I really think the time is nigh for this.

With A/B possibly changing hands soon, it seems to me the era of the great mass-produced national brands is coming to a close. The market will (already partly has) segment into mass name lights, price beers, retro-appeal beers - and increasingly full-bodied beers with taste.

Can't figure out why it's taking so long, come on Pabst!

Gary

[dave ziegler]

They should Look at the great sucess that the Poeple who bought the Narragansett Brand are having it is going so good it is now going to be marketed in FL for people from NE that go there in the winter Snow Birds. It is rated the top Macro Lager on the Beer advocat. I have had it and liked it so much I had a friend going up bring me 5 cases down it is I think, been a long time better then the original and I always loved Gansett!

Dave z

[Gillman]

"Neighbour, have a 'Gansett".

Gary

[Gillman]

Hey gents, ever hear of Pickwick Ale?

Per Mr. Robertson, it had "intense yeast aroma, soapy taste, [and was] creamy and foamy on the palate". He states it was introduced in the late 1950's and was billed by the company as "the only blend of lager beer, light ale and malt liquor ever canned in the U.S.". (Hmm, sounds like there was a kindred soul at work there in Cranston, RI when I was 5 years old).

'Gansett and Pickwick were okay but actually I was a Haffenreffer man when it came to the Rhode Island beers - and a devotee of Ballantine as earlier mentioned.

Gary

[Gillman]

Robertson's taste note on Krueger Beer:

"Pale colour, good well-hopped nose, hops sligtly dominate the flavor, medium body, quite a bit of character, sour malt in the middle [adjunct?], light finish. A good beer, better than average".

It sounded good for a low-price beer.

Gary

[dave ziegler]

Gary Did you ever have Schmidt's Of Philadelphia back in the day? For all People said about it I always liked it and drank it till the end! They were in Bussiness for 127 yrs and only because the Guy who bought it was a mess is what really killed them. Their Tiger Head Ale was Robert Smiths in Ny First, and was a very Nice Ale then, did you ever have Tiger Head. Also their Bock was good. The Brewery was Beautiful in the old days and the big front brew house had a large open Window were you could see the shining tanks on Girard Ave at 2nd. used to pass it and deliver next to it all the time. Would go down 2nd I think and come back 3rd by Ortliebs and on the corner next Ortliebs was a Jewish Bakery that had the best Onion Rye and Corn Rye in the world. Most of those great Bakerys are gone now although I think New Model Bakery sits next to Ortliebs is still there. Nothing like a big fresh slice of Corn Rye with Butter and a Beer of course Schmidt's Then. Ortliebs was a nice beer and when they first bought Kaiers it was good to but they did not make the Kaiers Porter I loved anymore.

Dave Z

Beer Its Not Just A Beverage Its Food

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[jesskidden]

They should Look at the great sucess that the Poeple who bought the Narragansett Brand are having

In one of the articles I read back when the new Narragansett company was getting off the ground, they mentioned that they were *leasing* the name from Pabst, so I'd imagine someone over there (in Illinois, now) is probably keeping an eye on it- and it might even be part of the inspiration for the "new" Schlitz.

I was pretty surprised that Schlitz was the brand Pabst picked, since it did NOT have much of a reputation when I started drinking beer (in the late 1960's), unlike a number of brand's they control (like, to beat a dead horse, Ballantine). Schlitz, of course, had national distribution (so there's that advantage) but the first thing that struck me when folks on various beer sites made the example of "Schlitz might be the next 'Gansett-style retro success" is that Schlitz, in many ways, was the beer that first knocked the RI favorite out of the top spot in parts of NE.

Here's some market share stats from Massachusetts (courtesy of the FTC):

1964 Narr. 25.2% Schlitz 5.8% A-B 11.5%

1974 Falstaff 10.4% Schlitz 33.7% A-B 24.4%

[Gillman]

Small self-correction: in the 1950's Pickwick Ale would have been made in Boston since that was the home of Haffenreffer, it was bought by Narragansett in the 1960's. (And later both of course folded into Falstaff).

I do remember Schlitz quite well, by the time I had it (mid-70's) it was the restored recipe, and I thought it was very good. I can recall a good hoppy character in particular.

I had certainly drunk Schmidt then as well and recall liking it but I would have favored their cream ale mentioned, Tiger Head, and I definitely had that a number of times, I remember the small stubby bottle.

In those years, Canadian ales were quite different from U.S. beers. They still are (e.g. Labatt 50 is quite different to Budweiser, etc.), it's just that now - again I am speaking of the mass market - the taste in Canada is attuned to lager-style beer, so the tastes have converged in many ways.

American Cream Ales also seemed to have a certain common style, kind of perfumed and citric sometimes. There was no Cream Ale then in Canada (so-called anyway) but there is now, e.g., Sleeman Cream Ale which is an excellent beer. Molson Golden Ale, still sold (although I'm not sure if it is an ale today) was the first of the lighter ales moving in a cream ale direction.

I'd like to try the revived old-style beers like Narragansett, I wonder if any attempt was made to duplicate a mid-1900's taste. However they approached it I'd give it a whirl, ditto Schlitz. I think we get a Schlitz malt liquor in Ontario but I tried that once and didn't like it. Of course ML is a separate category.

I used to drink some of these beers (certainly Schlitz, Genessee, Pabst, Matt's, Maximus Super, also Piels) in Plattsburgh and other northern New York State towns in the 70's.

The best though of that time IMO, and most are confirmed in Robertson's honor list which resulted from methodical tastings and ratings, were any Ballantine beer especially IPA, Michelob, Andeker, Prior Double Dark, Tuborg Gold, Augsburger, Yeungling Porter, Stegmaier Porter. There were certain bocks I liked too but I can't recall the names, maybe Genessee's was one. Incidentally Krueger was in his honor roll. So were Horlacher Perfection and Wiedemann but I never tried those.

It would be interesting to try al these today, I know some are still available but I would think the taste has changed since then.

Gary

[dave ziegler]

Another Beer before my time was Cadinal Beer and also Ruppert Beer back in the Day The Beer that Ruth Loved! I Have an old 1970 Phillies base ball Calender from Ballantine " Base Ball and Ballantine Beer". The Old Connie Mack Stadium had an old score Board from Yankee Stadium It said in big letters Proudly Ballantine Beer! When I started at Kinsey I would jump in my 1963 Chevy and drive down after work get tickets where ever I wanted right behind home Plate sit down get a Foremost Koser Hot Dog .50c a Bottle of ballatine .50c and just enjoy the game they were not a great team but the food, seats and feeling was great. To be able to afford and sit where you want, now only the elite get the good seats. The Beer Guy would yell Cold Beer Hey get your ballantine beer. and the hot dogs came out of a hot steam box and he would use a wooden stick to put on your Mustard. I would love to go back to the Night Dick Allen hit the one over the sign in center and out on to the roofs. I was lucky to be there that night. And my Hero Johnny Calison! I also Liked Roy Seivers at First Base, and Art Mahaffey Pitching!

Dave Z

Beer Its Not Just A Beverage Its Food

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[Jazzhead]

I have fond memories of Ortliebs. I first came to Philly for law school in 1979, and a few of us quickly discovered the Ortlieb brewery and would take trips on the El to eat lunch and quaff bodacious suds at the brewery rathskeller, which was at Third and American Streets (and, as Dave says, just a couple of blocks from the far larger Schmidts complex on Girard.) Joe Ortlieb ("Try Joe's Beer") ran the place and he'd sometimes pull a few from behind the bar.

The brewery had only a year or two left of existance. They were trying to promote a dark beer, I'm racking my brain to think of the name of it, but in the end the place expired quietly. The rathskeller was bought a year or two later by a business exec named Pete Souders who played saxophone and wanted a place to jam, and for over 20 years now Ortliebs Jazzhaus has been THE place to hear jazz in the Quaker City. http://ortliebsjazzhaus.com

Much of the original rathskeller remains intact, including the bar and the beer kegs over the front entrance. The place was recently remodelled, which meant the end of several good ol' Orliebs advertising murals and the stuffed water buffalo head. But Third and American has been an institution for both beer and jazz, and there isn't anything more doggone American than that!

[jesskidden]

I have fond memories of Ortliebs.... They were trying to promote a dark beer, I'm racking my brain to think of the name of it...

Possibly, the incredibly long named "Sean O'Shaughnessy Boarhead Stout"? It was a contempory brew with Ortlieb's malt liquor Coqui, and their version of McSorley's Cream Ale (they bought the label when Rheingold folded- tho' Schmidt's took most of the other old Rheingold labels).

The stout (one of the very few- if not only one- brewed in the US at the time) wasn't very "stout-like". I recall an interview with Joe Ortlieb at the time in which he said that, while inspired by Guinness, it was much lighter because he found Guinness too "heavy". (In Joe's defense, most Guinness in the US at the time was bottled Guinness Extra Stout. The draught in the keg was still a relatively rare here.)

Coqui seemed to be a replacement for Old English 800, which Ortlieb contract-brewed for a while when it was a Blitz-Weinhard brand. Around that time, Pabst had bought B-W and was probably going to brew OE itself in it's regional breweries around the country.

Ortlieb's version of McSorley's was a real nice ale for the time, certainly much hoppier than the typical "cream ale" of the era- I suspect Rheingold used "cream ale" only to ride that small wave of popularity at the time. Altho', according to Micheal Jackson, it was a "bastard ale", typical of a lot of US ales at the time- brewed with lager yeast but at higher temps.

but in the end the place expired quietly.

Yeah, I remember opening the paper one day and reading the article about the closing of the brewery and sale of the labels to Schmidt's. It was something of a shock, since Ortlieb was one of those small indie brewers who was making a lot of noise at the time. I *think* he was the guy who said (paraphrasing):

"I keep hearing how in 20 years there's only going to be 2 breweries left in America, and I keep wondering who the other one is going to be." *

In Joe's defense, in an interview he later said that he regretted his decision to sell as soon as he got done signing his name...

(* Tho' the quote might be from Joe Pickett out of Iowa, who similarly was often the public voice of the small, indie breweries. )

[jesskidden]

Gary Did you ever have Schmidt's Of Philadelphia back in the day? For all People said about it I always liked it and drank it till the end! They were in Bussiness for 127 yrs and only because the Guy who bought it was a mess is what really killed them. Their Tiger Head Ale was Robert Smiths in Ny First, and was a very Nice Ale then, did you ever have Tiger Head. Also their Bock was good.

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I never cared much for Schmidt's regular "light lager" beers- in later years I've read that they were somewhat notorious for a very high percentage of adjuncts- but I loved many of the their other brews. Prior Double Dark, of course (especially when it was still a relatively cheap beer in the US style stubby bottles- after the first Michael Jackson Pocket Guide rated it as one of the best beers in the US, they re-packaged it in "fancy" bottles and upped the price incredibly). One could even still find the "Prior Light" (as in color, not "diet") for a time, tho' it has lost most of it's "Czech" heritage by that time, tho' it's possible I never got a really fresh sample.

Schmidt's was one of the last "true ale" brewers, I was surprised to read (again, well after the fact) that they still did open fermenting in wooden vessels for at least some of their ales. The ales were quite different, tho'- many were in the "not very hoppy-cream ale or Canadian Ale" catagory, but a few were well hopped. I was never impressed with the Tiger Head I had, ditto the Duke Ale and their version of Neuweiler Ale (they did brew that former Ortlieb-owned label, for a while or am I mis-remembering that?).

OTOH, their version of McSorley's was great and around the same time they started selling a "Twentieth Century Ale", under the dba of "Adam Scheidt Brewing Company" (original home of the Prior beers) name that was very similiar (if not the same brew) to McSorley's, but, IIRC, even cheaper and in brown bottles, too.

One of the last ale brewers at Schmidt's was Bill Moeller (he'd also brewed at Reading, Horlacher and Ortlieb). Here's a few articles about him.

Brewer Bill Moeller At 80

And a nice visit to Victory by former Schmidt brewers is discussed here.

Schmidt's ... Tiger Head Ale was Robert Smiths in Ny First

The Robert Smith Ale Brewing Company was a long time Philadelphia brewery, which traced it's origins back to 1774, and was purchased by C. Schmidt and Sons in the late 1800's. The brewery itself closed at Prohibition, at which time is was considered the oldest brewery in the country. No "NY" connection that I've ever read about.

[jesskidden]

Another Beer before my time was Cadinal Beer and also Ruppert Beer back in the Day The Beer that Ruth Loved!

Don't recall "Cadinal" (maybe a typo and you mean "Cardinal", which I don't remember either :grin: ) at all- who brewed it?

IIRC, Ruth's era with the Yankees was almost entirely during the Prohibition era. so I've often wondered how much Ruppert Beer he ever got to drink. (Tho', I'm pretty sure they were making "near beer" cereal beverage, so who knows if a guest like Ruppert "employee" Ruth came by, some beer got "spilled" before it made it to the de-alcoholizing process.)

Ruppert was the head of the US Brewers Association during the later years of Prohibition, and appealed to brewers to not release their beers at Midnight on April 7, 1933- to avoid a "carnival atmosphere". He had a somewhat public feud going with August Busch, Jr. at the time over the controversy. (Of course, he wanted breweries to wait 'til 6am Friday morning- not much better as far as "PR" goes, I'd guess. Lots of drunks showing up for work late...).

Ruppert started the post-Repeal era as one of the top brewers (Fortune in '37 had them #4 behind A-B, Schlitz and Pabst) but quickly went downhill, locally eventually passed by Schaefer, Ballantine and Rheingold. 25 years after Repeal, they'd fallen to #16 in 1958 (barely beating out Piel Bros).

They folded in the mid-60's and Rheingold bought the labels and sold the beer (eventually called "Knickerbocker Natural") as a cheapie brand, so I never had "real" Ruppert.

[Jazzhead]

Sean O'Shaughnessy Boarhead Stout

That's it! I remember them pushing it hard at least at the rathskeller and I for one thought it was pretty good, indistinguishable after all these years in my mind with Yuengling Porter. Ridiculous name though - how can you possibly sound cool ordering that long-winded concoction from the barmaid?

I remember Neuweilers as a Schmidt product, too, although I know the Robertson book lists it as an Ortlieb product. It probably changed hands at one point. I only ever commonly saw the cream ale, and figured it was the same stuff as McSorley's.

Given both what's happened at Yuengling since those days and in the northern Liberties section of Philly, I can see why Joe Ortlieb would have regretted bitterly selling his family legacy. Some of the brewery buildings still stand, and while I miss Joe's beer, I know I would have been poorer but for the swingin' sounds I've dug for 20 years now at Ortlieb's Jazzhaus.